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[Eruannlass]

'The Presence of the Trees in the Current Age', and 'The Nature of the One's Children ~ A discussion

"Therefore he devised that Men should have a free virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances and chances of the world they might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is as fate to all things else."

                                                                 Lost Tales I- Music of the Ainur

Quote from Runyamire -

"Our fate will ever rest in our hands, though we be born of Arda marred, Illuvatar's mysterious gift holds the key to Arda healed.  Not the Vala, nor the Eldar (not even Melko)  ever had such a power of freedom, for their fate is bound to Ardás.  This gift suggests to me the power of transformation, just as death is a transformation, so too do we Edain have the power to transform ourselves and the world around us.  While the Vala and Eldar seem to me to be about preservation of past glory in the undying lands, the great lands are left to the Edain to work our will upon.  I feel the role of the Secondborn is to transform the themes of Melko woven into Arda since the beginning, so that the duality and discord between dark and light, past and future, preservation and destruction, might be brought into unity."


My thoughts ~ I connected the Tale of the Trees to the Eldar, and speak about both...

I can't explain it, but I feel that the Trees do still exist, even though the fact that they were destroyed cannot be overlooked.  I have yet to ask the Valar why I can see the Trees as clearly as anything else in the Realm, and while I know I'd get an answer, perhaps I'm meant to take it on faith.

I know that they are real, and perhaps the nature of that reality is echoed in what I was told in Gondolin - when I told the Gondolithim that I was upset that the city was going to be destroyed.  I was speaking to them as though I had gone back in time, and they replied to me that they were dwelling in the here and now, and that the city had been restored. 
(Nost~na~Lothion ~ 2008)

I have concluded that all of this is happening in the Imaginal Realm, and that it is not separate from our time, but is thankfully sheltered from our modern social progression.

I have, on several of my walks, pondered 'How?  How could the Trees have been restored?  When only the Silmarils held enough light to do so?'

  I thought of the Silmarils - one in the Sea, one in the Air, and one in the Earth.  They never lost their light, and many eons/ages have passed since they were put there.  The Valar and Maiar can travel to these places, and have always been able to gather light. 

Perhaps what was not possible in one immediate act - Yavanna healing the Trees with the Silmarils - became possible after all of the time that has passed.  It can never be said - by any but the Valar and and those who aid them - that the light was not gathered and collected in the ways that it was since the beginning and used to heal the Trees when there was enough of it to do so.  I sincerely hope that recent conclusions about the Trees and the Eldar are not rooted in a loss of hope.  Losing hope is not what the truth of the Lore is about.

As for the Eldar, I also do not question the truth of the Fading, but I feel that it is clear within the Lore that not all of the Eldar faded.  This would only have been a possibility for the ones who lingered in Middle-earth after the Ages of Man had progressed so far that so few regarded the ways of the Eldar that they were seen as small and insignificant - losing purpose for existence and 'disappearing' while striving to be on Erresea, or to enter the Blessed Realm, by the Road of Death.

The Eldar conceded the care of Imbar (the Habitation) to Man, that remains true.  Man holds dominion over Imbar.  I do not feel Man, as a whole, is doing a very good job with what they have been entrusted with.  I think the earth has had about all that it can stand...

The Eldar may lack the ability to connect to Imbar/Arda and Man in any way other than through their Fea, but it is possible, and it can have positive effects.  I consider my connection to Rowan as personal evidence of this. 

I'm not better than anyone else, but I feel that I possess something that the Valar recognize as merit for carrying out the will of the One.  One way or another, I feel that anyone who has been able to enter the Blessed Realm and connect to the Valar possesses that same something.

Why is it, in whatever Age of Man this is, that the Valar have begun to reach out to the hearts and minds of the Edain...and also see to it that they shall know the Eldar - the other of the Children of Iluvatar? 

To my reckoning, this is not insignificant.  I do feel that it is also not meant to be forced.  There are those who will resonate true with the Eldar on their path, and there are those who will not, and neither is superior to the other.  However, I would question the wisdom in concluding that the Edain can no longer learn from the Eldar.  Tolkien himself realized that the Eldar are still a thriving, living people with much to teach and share.  Does it matter that they no longer hold dominion over the evolution of Arda as a place?  Perhaps the Valar are seeing to it that the unknown future is more balanced between the ways of the Eldar, and the ways of the Edain.  My hope is that these points of why I believe that connecting to the Eldar is not an exercise in futility will be considered with the importance I believe them to have.

Anyone interested in this topic really needs to read Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.

                                                    Eruannlass
 

Moderator's Note

You can find  Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring, vol 10 of the HoME series.

[Ellenar]

The lore does tell us that the Trees were destroyed by Morgoth and Ungoliante.  That the light was preserved within the Silmarils.  That the light of the Sun and Moon are the last products of their flowering.
 
Does that mean that I discount the existence of the Trees, when we perceive them in trance and meditation?  Definitely not!  Time is cyclical.  The hidden realms do not function, within the time-stream, in the same manner in which we perceive time.  Indeed, I have heard it of serveral traditions which express a belief in the Otherworld/Faerie, that time does not exist within that realm. 
 
Therefore, it is not improbable that the Trees should have existence within the hidden realms.  If time is cyclical, it is quite feasible that it (at times) turns in upon itself.  That events are repeated, and the opportunity exists for a recreation of that which may have passed before.

[Lúthien]

Replying in this topic rather than the original, because it's not the music itself that I am replying on:

I know this is an old thread but I was inspired by a song I was listening to this morning to add something to it.  The song is "Rediscovery Part II" by "Symphony X" from "V The New Mythology Suite".  This album is based off myths of Atlantis and Egypt and channelings from Edgar Cayce.  Even though it doesn't specifically refer to the Legendarium, I find it evokes the same feelings and themes, and speaks to the plight of the Edain in this age of faded glory.  Of course there is the Atlantis/Numenor parallel as well, anyway here are the lyrics:

I'm not certain what to think. While there are indeed some fragments in the lyrics that feel like it could touch on the Legendarium - "Children of the Sun", "Seek the hidden rhyme", "Seek the hidden words" and "look to the Sea, under Skies of Hope" - it is also rather vague and even as you describe "based off myths of Atlantis and Egypt and channelings from Edgar Cayce "

It also speaks of "Goddess of Truth speaks eternally" <- there is no such thing in the Legendarium. The Valar do not know the complete Truth, either. And other phrases like  "Feel the mystery" and "Fools who looks for answers in a rhyme", "Five beyond the skies align" - etcetera .. they have no connection to it at all IMO.

It contains elements that you find in almost any (spiritual) tradition: anxiety for the future, fear that "mankind has wasted its chance", a coming "clash of Titans". 


Other than that, words like "Atlantis", "channeling" and "new world order", and also any attempt to suggest absolute knowledge, plus dwelling on fire and brimstone in whatever form automatically raise a red flag with me.
Why? Because I think it's too darn easy: throw in some assorted unexplained mystery (from the Reader's Digest series) and jazz it up with some Dark Tinsel .. dunno, it tastes too much like "wanting to create an effect" rather than imaginal truth.

If I compare those lyrics with this (Dagor Dagorath):

"There the forces of the Valar shall fight against Melkor, who will have resurrected many of his old followers, including Sauron. Tulkas will wrestle with him, but it will be by the hand of Túrin that finally death and destruction will be dealt to Melkor. Túrin will run his black sword Gurthang (Iron of Death) through Melkor's heart, thus avenging the Children of Húrin (Sindarin: Chîn Húrin) and all Men. Then the Pelóri Mountains will be levelled, the three Silmarils will be recovered from the Earth, sea, and sky, and Fëanor's spirit shall be released from the halls of Mandos to give them to Yavanna, who will break them and rekindle the light of the Two Trees. The battle will end and renew Ardás existence: all the Elves shall awake and the Powers will be young again. Also, according to Dwarven legends, they will help their maker Aulë recreate Arda in all its glory again. It is also thought that at that time, the substance that was used to create the Silmarils will be revealed."

I really need to think how to voice that properly - but it is not only a difference in contents. It is also style: even though the events described here are rather large - there is no added drama. No fire and brimstone in sight. It just is what it is.
Therefore, to me, it rings true: it feels like a real vision, and its impact is shattering.

This line reminds me of Sauron's corruption of the Numenoreans:
He's taken form in human - likeness
and manifests himself in all our darkest dreams
Preying upon centuries of weakness
Feasting on despair and our own selfish greed

There is indeed a likeness. But you could also liken it to many other "devils" or "antichrists".

This line particularly struck a chord with a section of Lost Tales I that I also read today:
Lost evermore the essence of truth, although
she tried in vain to bring us peace, it will
ever rest in our hands
We've cried a thousand tears for all we had,
and all the things we could have been,
we must find our way again

Indeed - but again, it is a rather universal theme: paradise lost, and the longing back for it.

Our fate will ever rest in our hands, though we be born of Arda marred, Illuvatar's mysterious gift holds the key to Arda healed.  Not the Vala, nor the Eldar (not even Melko)  ever had such a power of freedom, for their fate is bound to Ardás.  This gift suggests to me the power of transformation, just as death is a transformation, so too do we Edain have the power to transform ourselves and the world around us.  While the Vala and Eldar seem to me to be about preservation of past glory in the undying lands, the great lands are left to the Edain to work our will upon.  I feel the role of the Secondborn is to transform the themes of Melko woven into Arda since the beginning, so that the duality and discord between dark and light, past and future, preservation and destruction, might be brought into unity.

That element of freedom given to humans is indeed an essential thing, and an essential difference between the Quendi and humans.

But I don't agree that the role of the Valar and the Eldar is limited to "preservation of past glory in the undying lands". Though the Valar are largely unvisible and most folk are unaware of them, they are not museum conservators. Manwë is "the Elder King" - for now and for all. That he has no control over humanity (because of that given freedom) - and does not desire to (because he must have at least some inkling of the intentions of Iluvatar), though it is said that humankind's deeds are often a grief to him - does not diminish that fact.

The Eldar are also more than museum pieces - I am very certain of that. But you are right that this day and age is basically humanity's time, and I can only hope that they will accomplish what you describe above.

[Ellenar]

Though the Valar are largely unvisible and most folk are unaware of them, they are not museum conservators.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.  I have experienced the influence of the Valar, within my life, on too numerous of occassions to discount it.

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