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[Forest Wizard]

DISCLAIMER:  As you must all know by now, I am a newbie to the gnostic approach to the Legendarium.

My knowledge thusfar pales before yours.  Notwithstanding that fact, I read the Silmarillion everyday now and I am a rather quick study so I hope to be able to contribute to our discussions more meaningfully as time goes on.

What I CAN say with some authority is that I feel very much AT HOME with this stretch of my spiritual path - moreso than with ANY other I have encountered in my long travels.  My personal path is that of the wizard (istar.)   Although that path is not predominantly a religious one it, nonetheless, recognises and honors spirits, entities and powers that exist alongside my own.

More to the point of my post, I have begun to incorporate the Valar and, of course, Quenya into my various rituals and "workings."  It all feels very right to me.  In Wicca and other religious systems there are rulers, spirits or any number of assorted entities to represent the worlds primal elements.  Earth, air, fire and water are common in our neck of the woods.  Despite using Wiccan-style "trappings" and procedures over the years both as a regular coven member and as a leader/ founder of covens, I have never felt that it FIT me 100%.

By a very curious series events I find myself here and now with you people.  This feels RIGHT to me.  My craft has new life and a deeper resonance than I have felt before.  Now Eru Iluvatar is part of every ritual I perform.  Granted, he who is the ONE can be called by other names but Eru and the Ainur do not come with excess religious 'bagage' from my Judeo/Christian past. Eru Iluvatar, Manwe, Ulmo, Yavanna and the others are fresh and untainted for the most part.

Please forgive my long-winded babbling, friends!

I ask those more knowledgeable than myself this simple question:  Which Valar are best suited to represent earth, air, fire and water?  Until now Manwe seems best to represent air and Ulmo water.  After that it gets more complicated.  Yavanna repressents things that grow, but earth? .... can someone help?

Thank you all.

[Ellenar]

Greetings, Forest Wizard.  As a member who is somewhat versed in the lore of the elements and elemental energies, I believe that I can help you in understanding these matters, where the mythology is concerned. 

At its most basic conception, the Legendarium expresses the shape of the world as a trinity.  The map of  The World-Ship depicts three distinct realms:  The realm of air; being composed of the three airs.  The realm of earth, upon which rest the Great Lands, the hidden realms of Aman and Tol Eressea.  The realm of sea, wherein in lie the waters of Vai, and the Encircling Seas. 

In the lore, Manwe, Aule, and Ulmo are chief among the Valar in the shaping and ordering of Arda.  Each of them corresponds with one of the three realms:  Manwe=Air, Aule=Earth, Ulmo=Sea.  When considering the natures of these Valar, we see that Manwe embodies air, and Ulmo embodies water.  However, Aule's nature is more closely associated with the sub-creative principle, thus it is more aligned with the element of fire.  Notice that each of the three rings of the Elves (Nenya, Narya, and Vilya) correspond with one of these elements.

In regards to the Legendarium mythos, the conception of a four-fold elemental principle is lost.  The symbolic nature of earth is such that it represents manifestation, or form.  It is not given a particular elemental significance; being related to Art (the product of the application of sub-creation).

In working with the Valar, I have found that they relate more to aspects of light than they do to elemental energies.  For example, from The Book Of Lost Tales 1, we learn that Lorien, Mandos, and Nienna were more aligned with the light of Silpion (Telperion), whereas Yavanna, and Vana, were more partial to the light of Laurelin.  As light is a central theme of the mythology, viewing the Valar in this wise is essentially native to the Legendarium, or so I believe.   


       

[Lúthien]

For "Earth" I'd say Aulë is the one that comes to my mind. There is no particular Vala that I associate with fire - or maybe, when you take "fire" in a much broader sense as energy and light - it could be Varda, who created the stars.
More specifically associated with fire is Arien, the maia: the "Maiden of the Sun" of whom is said in the Silmarillion that she was of old a fire-spirit that Melkor / Morgoth could not seduce to serve him.

It's interesting what you say:

By a very curious series events I find myself here and now with you people.  This feels RIGHT to me.  My craft has new life and a deeper resonance than I have felt before.  Now Eru Iluvatar is part of every ritual I perform.  Granted, he who is the ONE can be called by other names but Eru and the Ainur do not come with excess religious 'bagage' from my Judeo/Christian past. Eru Iluvatar, Manwe, Ulmo, Yavanna and the others are fresh and untainted for the most part.

I understand what you mean. To me, the legendarium feels .. just "completely right". As if everything makes sense. It feels in harmony with everything inside. No single religion or spiritual idea has ever even come near that with me.

[Meneldur Olvarion]

Just adding my support to Elennar's synopsis and interpretation here.  Elennar was the original designer of our ritual observances, and we have discussed these issues at some length.

The thread with the World-Ship diagram in it is to be found here.

[...] In regards to the Legendarium mythos, the conception of a four-fold elemental principle is lost.  The symbolic nature of earth is such that it represents manifestation, or form.  It is not given a particular elemental significance; being related to Art (the product of the application of sub-creation).

Indeed, for categories at the nominal level of measurement which occur with the greatest frequency in the Legendarium, especially in regard to higher spiritual beings or significant events, they seem to cluster around 3 and its multiples, and 7.

There also seems to be a tendency within the Lore as a whole for "things of significance" to cluster around the lucky numbers, but I have not scanned the entire corpus for this or statistically verified it.

///Dave

[Lúthien]

now here I should insert a disclaimer: I know nothing of Wicca or such things and therefore any reference to those areas is somehow strange to me.

With all due respect to anyone's background - I could not help wondering why one would feel a need to apply patterns and ideas taken from such backgrounds to the legendarium. I don't have any particular opinion about it apart from that I do not understand it, and do not feel a need to look at the material from the legendarium through the lens of such notions (or frameworks or what have you).

To be more specific: I cannot imagine what the added value would be of looking for numerical patterns like "things come in threes" or other such symmetries or the lack thereof.
To me, the content of the stories, the imagery, the way it touches my heart; those are the things that matter .. the colours, the poetry, the sound of the words. The way that it hooks up to an inner truth.

The funny thing is - to me at least - that an activity like looking for symmetries is an activity that I associate way more with science than with spirituality.
I would really like to know how that works for you.

garo 'lass
Lúthien

[Ellenar]

For "Earth" I'd say Aulë is the one that comes to my mind.

I agree that Aule is indeed associated with earth, as is evidenced by my aligning him with the earth realm.  However, when speaking of elemental associations and how they relate to archetypal energies, I generally think in terms of the traits and qualities associated with a particular elemental energy, as being indicative of the elemental energy embodied by the archetype in question.  In my opinion, Aule's nature is fiery though he is a Vala associated with the earth realm.

In comtemplating how the elements relate to the Legendarium mythos, I have come to view earth and fire as being intimately linked.  In short, the element I spiritually associate with the earth realm is fire.  Yavanna would "traditionally" embody the elemental energy of earth, as would Aromez (Orome), in a lesser degree.  Just as Nessa, in a lesser degree, would embody a principle associated with fire.  Even when considered in this wise, the pairing of Aule and Yavanna reflects an intimate association between earth and fire.

*As a side note, I actually tend to ascribe light a watery-energy.  This is no doubt due to the liquid nature attributed to light, in the earliest tales of the mythos.  That, however, is another subject entirely.   

[Ellenar]

I think what it all comes down to, Luthien, is what the individual finds as being spiritually valid to his or her specific path.  There are some traditions, and people,  that value numbers as being sacred and spiritual.  These people will undoubtedly find the numerical symbolism, contained within the Legendarium mythology, of great interest as well as an aid to thier spiritual practice.

In regards to myself, I view song and singing as spiritual practices.  I find them to be acts of great inspiration, and therefore assets to my spirituality.  The science of pitch, tones, and how certain notes effect the human consciousness may not be of interests to most people, nor or these things clearly delineated within the Legendarium.  However, I would find them to be very applicable to my overall spiritual practice.   

[Forest Wizard]

I think what it all comes down to, Luthien, is what the individual finds as being spiritually valid to his or her specific path.  There are some traditions, and people,  that value numbers as being sacred and spiritual.  These people will undoubtedly find the numerical symbolism, contained within the Legendarium mythology, of great interest as well as an aid to thier spiritual practice.

Yes indeed, each individual is just that - an individual - and their spiritual path is unique to them.  There will invariably be elements that "speak" to one person and not to another.  This is as it should be, in my opinion.

To Luthien's point about "bringing in" number correspondences or other ideas from belief systems outside of the Legendarium, I would say this;  my adopting the Legendarium as my personal mythos does not require that I forget or ignore other belief systems with which I might draw comparisons.  As best I can tell my making a reference to Wicca, for example, does not indicate I  intend to 'bring it into' my current practices any more than mentioning my Judeo/ Christian background means I intend to practice some hybrid  form of Tolkienesque Christianity!  My original question was asking how the Legendarium compared to systems that used 4 elements in ritual.  In fact I will likely modify my rituals to reflect the information Ellenar provided.  Of  course that is MY decision alone.

Finally, I do not think science and spirituality are mutually exclusive.  Truth has nothing to fear from science and vice-versa.  I believe the spiritual realm, complete with its countless spiritual and elemental inhabitants (dragons, fairies, elves, Valar, etc., etc.) are REAL and TRUE on that plane of existence.  As a result I am not afraid to include science in that discussion.  I, for one, refuse to live in a fantasy world.  Rather, I choose to live in a SPIRITUAL place that, although not YET provable by scientific means, is nonetheless part of a universal reality.

I hope my comments are received in the goodly spirit in which they are made.     

[Meneldur Olvarion]

[...] In my opinion, Aule's nature is fiery though he is a Vala associated with the earth realm.

Indeed.  One of his titles is Talka Marda, "Smith Of The World" (Q).

In comtemplating how the elements relate to the Legendarium mythos, I have come to view earth and fire as being intimately linked.  In short, the element I spiritually associate with the earth realm is fire.  Yavanna would "traditionally" embody the elemental energy of earth, as would Aromez (Orome), in a lesser degree.  Just as Nessa, in a lesser degree, would embody a principle associated with fire.

Yes, there is an explicit link to Aule's Light/Fire aspect that you alluded to in your first post, beyond his by-name of "The Smith".  This is to be found in the first form of the legend of the Coming of the Elves:

[...] "Behold, there is a gleam of gold beneath the pine-trees, and the deepest gloaming of the world is full of a patter of feet. The Eldar have come, O Taniquetil!" Then Varda arose swiftly and stretched her arms out North and South, and unbraided her long hair, and lifted up the Song of the Valar, and Ilwe {the stellar realm} was filled with the loveliness of her voice. Then did she descend to Valmar and to the abode of Aule; and he was making vessels of silver for Lorien. A bason filled with the radiance of Telimpe {the lake of silver-light from Telperion} was by his side, and this he used cunningly in his craft, but now Varda stood before him and said: "The Eldar have come!" and Aule flung down his hammer saying: "Then Iluvatar hath sent them at last," and the hammer striking some ingots of silver upon the floor did of its magic smite silver sparks to life, that flashed from his windows out into the heavens. Varda seeing this took of that radiance in the bason and mingled it with molten silver to make it more stable, and fared upon her wings of speed, and set stars about the firmament in very great profusion, so that the skies grew marvellously fair and their glory was doubled; and those stars that she then fashioned have a power of slumbers, for the silver of their bodies came of the treasury of Lorien and their radiance had lain in Telimpe long time in his garden.

Some have said that the Seven Stars were set at that time by Varda to commemorate the coming of the Eldar, and that Morwinyon {Arcturus} who blazes above the world's edge in the west was dropped by her as she fared in great haste back to Valinor. Now this is indeed the true beginning of Morwinyon and his beauty, yet the Seven Stars were not set by Varda, being indeed the sparks from Aule's forge whose brightness in the ancient heavens urged Varda to make their rivals; yet this did she never achieve.

--- "The Coming Of The Elves And The Making Of Kor", Lost Tales, Book I

Even when considered in this wise, the pairing of Aule and Yavanna reflects an intimate association between earth and fire.

Yes.  As is clearly seen is this passage from "Of the Beginning of Days" in the Silmarillion:

[...] Of {Aule} comes the lore and knowledge of the Earth and of an things that it contains: whether the lore of those that make not, but seek only for the understanding of what is, or the lore of an craftsmen: the weaver, the shaper of wood, and the worker in metals; and the tiller and husbandman also, though these last and all that deal with things that grow and bear fruit must look also to the spouse of Aulë, Yavanna Kementári. Aulë it is who is named the Friend of the Noldor, for of him they learned much in after days, and they are the most skilled of the Elves; and in their own fashion, according to the gifts which Ilúvatar gave to them, they added much to his teaching, delighting to tongues and in scripts, and in the figures of broidery, of drawing, and of carving. The Noldor also it was who first achieved the making of gems; and the fairest of an gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.

One can clearly see from this citation that among these two (and so for most of the Valar-pairs, whose individual 'specialties' are sufficiently described) there is a sort of blending and intertwining of duty and expertise.

///Dave

[Ellenar]

My original question was asking how the Legendarium compared to systems that used 4 elements in ritual.  In fact I will likely modify my rituals to reflect the information Ellenar provided. 

I have studied a great deal of elemental lore from the Alchemical, Pagan, Tantric, Celtic, and Hermetic traditions.  I have also studied how personality traits, and characteristics, relate to elemental energies.  I say this for two reasons.  One, so that you will understand that you are not the only member who has had thoughts along this line.     Two, so that you may understand that the conclusions I have drawn were not made prematurely and without knowledge.

The traditional four-fold, or even the five-fold elemental pattern, does not really work within the framework of the Legendarium, as it is not a central theme of the mythology.  However, elemental symbolism is found within the lore.  What I have learned of it has been shared in my previous posts.  I am glad that you express a similar interest, Forest Wizard.  Perhaps you may gain an insight which will add to what I have thus far gleaned from my studies. 

[Ellenar]

Yavanna would "traditionally" embody the elemental energy of earth, as would Aromez (Orome), in a lesser degree.  Just as Nessa, in a lesser degree, would embody a principle associated with fire. 

Let me elaborate, a little, on this statement.  Two of Orome's titles are Tauron (Forest Lord) and Aldaron (Lord of Trees).  His nature is most closely aligned with the earthiness of Yavanna.  (Which is probably why they were the two amongst all the Valar, who spent the greatest amount of time wandering the Great Lands.)  Nessa is the Vala of Dance and is associated with:  dance, movement, youth, vitality, and the solar aspect of light.  These things are fiery in nature.  As such, she is more closely aligned with the fiery-ness of Aule. 

[Meneldur Olvarion]

[...] To Luthien's point about "bringing in" number correspondences or other ideas from belief systems outside of the Legendarium, I would say this;  my adopting the Legendarium as my personal mythos does not require that I forget or ignore other belief systems with which I might draw comparisons.  As best I can tell my making a reference to Wicca, for example, does not indicate I  intend to 'bring it into' my current practices any more than mentioning my Judeo/ Christian background means I intend to practice some hybrid  form of Tolkienesque Christianity!  My original question was asking how the Legendarium compared to systems that used 4 elements in ritual.  In fact I will likely modify my rituals to reflect the information Ellenar provided.  Of  course that is MY decision alone.

I don't think that Luthien intended any offense with her statement.  If I may hazard a guess (as we speak of these issues frequently) it is more that many neopagans seem to assume that their worldview and 'schema-set' is universally shared by anyone who is not on the Fundy Christian track.  But some of us come from a more scientific/agnostic or even atheistic worldview, and thus may never even have heard of such things as "the four classical elements" (well, five if you include aether as many do).  It isn't that we are offended by their mention, but the effect is probably similar to what would happen if you asked the average man on the street what significance he attaches to congruence subgroups in the Hurwitz quaternion order, vis a vis Riemann surface theory and systolic geometry.

Most likely, you'd get a "WTF?!!!" reaction. 

The only reason that I can bandy terms like 'Aether' and 'Enochian Calls' and so forth around is that I have an amateur interest in anthropology, and so when I first encountered the (to me, intending no offense) alien culture of neopaganism some 5 years ago, I wanted to at least learn enough to understand the lingo, even if the informational content did not interest me greatly (aside from shamanism, which I already had exposure to via my anthropological interests).  But, some people may be more interested in looking at the Legendarium from the "inside out" rather than through a pre-existing external 'lens', whether that be one of neopaganism or one of reductionism (such as many of the Tolkienian linguistic and literary groups use).

Anyway, Luthien can speak for herself, I just wanted to provide a little background.

///Dave

_{{Edited a bit later to remove some small typos, yo.  }}

[Lúthien]

Yes indeed, each individual is just that - an individual - and their spiritual path is unique to them.  There will invariably be elements that "speak" to one person and not to another.  This is as it should be, in my opinion.

Yes, I quite agree.

To Luthien's point about "bringing in" number correspondences or other ideas from belief systems outside of the Legendarium, I would say this;  my adopting the Legendarium as my personal mythos does not require that I forget or ignore other belief systems with which I might draw comparisons. 

Who spoke of requirements?
My question was: "I would really like to know how that works for you."

Finally, I do not think science and spirituality are mutually exclusive.  Truth has nothing to fear from science and vice-versa.  I believe the spiritual realm, complete with its countless spiritual and elemental inhabitants (dragons, fairies, elves, Valar, etc., etc.) are REAL and TRUE on that plane of existence.  As a result I am not afraid to include science in that discussion.  I, for one, refuse to live in a fantasy world.  Rather, I choose to live in a SPIRITUAL place that, although not YET provable by scientific means, is nonetheless part of a universal reality.

I don't think that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive either. But again, that was neither what I said nor intended: I was speaking of the activity, the method. I have a background in physical sciences and am thus familiar with it's methods; and as far as I have grown to experience and know gnosis I honestly cannot imagine how "looking for symmetries" could contribute to that in my case. I stress those last three words explicitly, because my disclaimer and statements to the effect of "I'm just curious" seemed to be overlooked in my previous post: I get the impression that it has been perceived as some form of critique, which it is not.

Then, about "I'm not afraid to include science in that discussion. I, for one, refuse to live in a fantasy world.  Rather, I choose to live in a SPIRITUAL place that, although not YET provable by scientific means, is nonetheless part of a universal reality."
Now, what do you mean? That some are afraid to include science in that discussion? Or are content to live in a fantasy world? I don't know how to interpret this. I'm serious here.

This is how I think about it: every attempt at gnosis is doomed to fail if there is no certain level of skepticism and "scientific thinking" involved. I mean, look at the "ER's of the world". So in that regard, I can only confirm that it is a very necessary thing. But that was (again) not what I was speaking of. I was speaking of using methods like looking for symmetries which I know only from the physical sciences, in particular physics. This is not the same as the critical / skeptical judgement that one uses in order to distinguish between gnosis and mere fantasy, but an activity that means to model general theory out of observed data.
I think that everyone here will agree that the fact that the imaginal is not scientifically provable does not make it any less valid. I think that is one of our axioms even

garo 'lass
Luthien

[Meneldur Olvarion]

Attached to the end of this post is a document that may be of some use to you, Q.

It is a table which was printed and presented at a Montana pagan gathering by Lisa (Calantirniel) in August of 2007, and reflects both the attributes of the Valar as described in the Lore and some gnostic inferences, as we had experienced them at the time that I made this table (before T-e and IV became separate groups).  I had quite forgotten about it, and only rediscovered it this afternoon.  It may not display exactly "print ready" because we were using some non-standard fonts, but the information is all there.  You should be able to open it with both MS Office 2007 (earlier versions probably will not work) or the later Open Office versions.

///Dave

[Forest Wizard]

Yes, I quite agree.
Who spoke of requirements?
My question was: "I would really like to know how that works for you."

I don't think that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive either. But again, that was neither what I said nor intended: I was speaking of the activity, the method. I have a background in physical sciences and am thus familiar with it's methods; and as far as I have grown to experience and know gnosis I honestly cannot imagine how "looking for symmetries" could contribute to that in my case. I stress those last three words explicitly, because my disclaimer and statements to the effect of "I'm just curious" seemed to be overlooked in my previous post: I get the impression that it has been perceived as some form of critique, which it is not.

Thank you for the clarification Luthien.  I find it hard to believe you would be intentionally offensive or critical in your comments.   

Then, about "I'm not afraid to include science in that discussion. I, for one, refuse to live in a fantasy world.  Rather, I choose to live in a SPIRITUAL place that, although not YET provable by scientific means, is nonetheless part of a universal reality."
Now, what do you mean? That some are afraid to include science in that discussion? Or are content to live in a fantasy world? I don't know how to interpret this. I'm serious here.

Now its my turn to clarify.  I was speaking in purely general terms.  And yes, I have encountered MANY people who are threatened by any discussion of science or "facts" when it touches on their dearly held religious beliefs.  I hope no offense was taken here, friends. 

To all you gentlefolk... THANK YOU very much for the detailed answers to my questions.  There are more helpful than you know!

Unfortunately, there is much more I would like to add to this comment but mundane work is making its unwelcome call.

Namarie!

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