Re: Sindarin poems

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Lúthien
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:36 pm

Niennildi Oarnen wrote: This may throw a spanner in the works.  ::) But as I read JRRT's English version, I thought it was Beren shivering, not the stars. I realize the punctuation and pronoun usage don't make it out that way, but that's still the way I read it it. (I still wouldn't choose "shuddering", but if my interpretation influences you, it may change how you translate.)
Actually, that's not a spanner. It's an eye-opener ...

It could very well be like that indeed. It would not make a difference for the translation, but it would render "shuddering" a more plausible option. I'll ask some others what they think.

I think that the metaphor of the stars in the cold winter sky shivering is quite nice though .. but indeed ...

thanks!!!
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 pm

Lúthien Athariel wrote: heyyyy that is cool!!! Thanks!
I've looked wide and far for something like "tremble" or "quiver" indeed, but this document I did not see. Where did you get that from?
Where?  Bitorrenting no doubt  ;)  I have a whole treasure trove of stuff I've gotten that way.

Here is more information about it, though: http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma11.html

///Dave

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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:15 pm

Faster, kids, faster!  ;D *

6th verse -

When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant thranduil
Sui glirilinn* a rhoss dannol
A nen udul o lhoss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestant aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úphrestol


She came again at (the) fleeing winter
Her song released the vigorous spring
Like lark and falling rain
And water which came from snow babbling
He saw springing of niphredil
At her feet, he healed then
He desired to dance with the lady
Singing upon (the) pasture untroubling.


aphadol - following / then cf. Pedin Edhellen 21.4.1
glirilinn* - lark - reconstructed cf Q. lirulin, for now at least ...
niphredil - a pale winter flower, snowdrop - I thought of the Silmarillion
from Ch. 10 - Of the Sindar wrote:and there in the forest of Neldoreth Lúthien was born, and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth.
* I think I'm getting the hang of this! (like Sam, when fighting with a frying pan)
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:50 am

got some feedback and thought some more about this verse ...

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol
A nen udul o loss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol


_i ethuil_ - maybe better b/c of possible association with the name Thranduil

_o loss_ instead of _o lhoss_ - another quite suble one:
there's _o*_ I I [ɔ] (od*) prep. from, of; preposition (as a proclitic) used in either direction, from or to the point of view of the speaker
◇ Ety/360, WJ/366, WJ/369-70, LotR/II:IV, SD/129-31, RGEO/72 ◈ According to WJ/366, the preposition "is normally o in all positions, though od appears occasionally before vowels, especially before o-". With a suffixed article, see also uin ◇ OS *aud ((A)WA, blended with HO)

and there is _o_ II [ɔ] prep. about, concerning
◇ Ety/378 ◈ The Etymologies state that h- is prefixed to the word following this preposition, when it begins in a vowel: o Hedhil "concerning the elves (Edhil)". Some scholars consider that this rule is not valid in Sindarin, but that the preposition would perhaps become oh in such a case (hence oh Edhil, to be compared with ah in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth ◇ OS *o, *oh, CE *os (OS)

There appears to be some linguistic bickering about this (well, that's normal since I observed that *bickering* seems to be the ground state of linguists) but it comes down to that the first form would not cause the archaic adding of a _h_ after the first consonant in words that begin with c/l/p/r/t ; while the second one does.

So _o lhoss_ would rather mean concerning snow, while _o loss_ means from/of snow - which is what I needed.

_nestas_ instead of _nestant - since it is used intransitively here ("he healed again" instead of "(...) healed some this-or-that")

_tuilinn_ - swallow comes from OS *tuilindo, *tuilelindo "spring-singer" (TUJ, LIN2) and is attested so probably a better choice then my reconstruction.

brestol_ used nasal mutation instead of lenition

These ppl on that German forum are actually very helpful. No Erna's in sight there.
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:52 am

And another tweak suggested ...

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol
A nen udul ed loss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol


_ed_ == coming from
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:01 pm

Sindarin
original by J.R.R.Tolkien
Sindarin to English



I nimwaloth i bain a phant
I laiss in end calen nadhras
Calad egennir mi i lant
E geil mi dhúath thiliol
Tinúviel i lilthas ias
Na lind o simp* dholen a brand
A vi finnil dîn glîn ennas
A vi chammad dîn míriol.



The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering.



The white blossoms, they were fair and full,
The leaves they were long, green the pasture,
A light was seen in the clearing
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To noble (high, lofty) music of a hidden flute
And in her hair a glint was there
as in her clothing, shining like a jewel




Nu laiss Beren erui padas
Ab aegais ring dad túliel
Ennas i elduin sirias
Nûr a erui reniol
Min laiss en-gwaloth tíriel
Glinthant mellys 'lassui ennas
Na choll a rainc dîn derthiel
Sui dae finnil dîn aphadol

There Beren came from mountains cold.
And lost he wandered under leaves,
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
And her hair like shadow following.


Under leaves Beren wandered alone
After having come down from cold mountain peaks,
Where the the Elven-river flowed
Sad and alone he wandered.
Having gazed between the blossom leaves
He happily glanced (at) flowers of gold there
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
Like shadow her following hair.




I lûth nestant i dail naegrol
Berthennin dhyl athreviad
Agamp geleg ha vell, bragol
Mabant ithildim thiliol
Trî 'aladhremmin eldorath
He dregas fair na dail lilthol
Awarthant Beren reniad
Erui vi daur dhínen lastol.




Enchantmen healed his weary feet
That over hills were doomed to roam;
And forth he hastened, strong and fleet,
And grasped at moonbeams glistening.
Through woven woods in Elvenhome
She lightly fled on dancing feet,
And left him lonely still to roam
In the silent forest listening.


The spell, it healed the (his) hurting feet
doomed to wander over hills
He leaped swift strong, sudden
Seized (at) glistening moonlight.
Through tree-woven elven-home
She fled promptly with feet dancing
She forsook Beren to stray
Alone in the silent forest listening.




Sui laiss dulus i thail ellint
Lastant ennas lhyss reviol
A vi imlaid thyrin i lind
Ennas eithelui tuiol
Si nimwaloth i tharn, thinnol
a thloss ath thloss vi i chelch thind
laiss e-mrethil vi daur dharthol
hain sui gwilwileth sí dannol.


He heard there oft the flying sound
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound
Whispering fell the beachen leaves
In (the) wintry woodland wavering.

Like poplar-leaves the (exceedingly) swift feet
He heard there flying
And in hidden valleys the tunes
there like a well springing up
now the white blossoms (lay) withered, fading
and whisper after whisper in the grey cold
the beechen leaves in the waiting wood
like butterflies here were falling.


Ún chir hen revias palan
Erin laiss caedennin ennas
Nu 'ilgalad a nui gúran
Vi menel edhring míriol
Nu ithildim coll dîn tinnas
Sui caw amon, haeron a brann
Na dail dîn peliol, lilthas
I chîth gelebren hwiniol.


He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hill-top high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn.
A mist of silver quivering.

He did not find her, he wandered far
On the fallen leaves there
Below starlight and under the crescent moon
Sparkling in the freezing heaven
Her mantle glinted below moonlight
Like (the) top of a hill, far and high
Spreading at her feet, while she danced
(was) A twirling silver mist.


Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol
A nen udul ed loss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol.


When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.

She came again at (the) fleeing winter
Her song released the spring
Like swallow and (like) falling rain
And water which came from snow babbling
He saw springing of niphredil
At her feet, he healed then
He desired to dance with (the) lady
Singing upon (the) pasture untroubling.


He dregas ad, dan ho nerant,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
Eneg edhellen dîn estant;
adhor ennas lû hen lastol.
Ne phost thent Beren, túliel
Na lûth ed lam dîn gen gwedhant   
Si barthannen Tinúviel
Dorthas vi rinc dîn thiliol.


Again she fled, but swift he came,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel
That in his arms lay glistening.

She fled again, but he ran,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her elvish name;
she stopped there at that time, listening.
In that short moment Beren, having come
by the spell of his tongue she was bound
Doomed now was Tinúviel
(who) dwelled in his arms, glistering.


Beren tirant na chîn iell
Vi 'wath finnil dîn velui
O elenath aglar menel
Egent ennas i míriol

Tinúviel elvanui
Elleth alfirin edhelhael
O hon ring finnil fuinui
A renc gelebrin thiliol. #


As Beren looked into her eyes
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering.
Tinúviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.

Beren gazed into the girl's eyes
In the sweet shadow of her hair
From the starry host, the glory of the sky
He saw sparkling there.
Tinúviel elven-fair
Immortal maiden elven-wise
About him cast her shadowy hair
And silvery arms glistering.



I dhoer manath únodui,
Trî annon dûr, angren thamas
Am ered gondeb, hithui
A thaur dhúatheb angoeol.
I aearon min hain dorthas,
Govanner ad na vedui,
Pelanner io anann ennas
Úníniel vi daur linnol.



Long was the way that fate them bore,
O'er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more,
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.


Countless were the leagues of Fate,
Through dark door, iron hall,
Over stony mountains full of clouds,
And wood of nightshade filled with dread.
The Great sea between them lay,
They met again in the end,
They faded away there long ago,
In the forest, singing without tears





*simp == reconstruction from Quenyan _simpa_ flute
# Tinúviel elvanui ... gelebrin thiliol translated by David Salo for the LOTR movies
A! Suilannon le - elin velui, dîn dolog, aduial lúthad!

Arodring*

Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Arodring* » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:21 am

Thanks for all of your hard work Luthien.  I can tell you care a great deal about your Sindarin and it reveals itself through the poems beauty.  I really appreciate the extensive translations and your lively narration at the beginning.  Both poems and the Sindarin language seem to take on a whole new dimension when they are read aloud.  I look forward to hearing more of these so you can continue to inspire all of us at Ilsalunte Valion.

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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:49 pm

Glassen, Arodring!

I have been in a sort of translating spree I think ... strange thing is that it is a skill that I cannot really describe. I've been working for one whole day and another half to make the last 6 verses. I can only describe it in metaphorical terms like 'kneading' where the verses almost get physical properties.

But I cannot say that it is hard. It is just "a lot of possibilities" that have to be considered, like in chess. Although there are more dimensions to consider than in chess, for possible alternatives in chess are easier to gauge I think (I'm not good at chess though).

I don't know if I could do this in other languages though. Sindarin really feels wonderfully compact and 'fit'.
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:03 pm

here's a link to a recording I just made of the whole thing. Nothing fancy, just reading it aloud.
Athariel tells about Tinúviel  ;D

LOL it just occurred to me that _aegais_ sounds almost identical to English Hi Guys  8) ::)
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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Eruannlass » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:04 pm

Suilad Melleth,

This is indeed great work.  Very beautiful and stirring.  I can feel how much diligence you approached this translation with as I am reading it.  It's very apparent how much joy you have as you do activities like this.    :)

                                                            Eruannlass

PS - the second link - Athariel tells about Tinuviel - doesn't seem to be working, but oh, do I love the 'file not found message'...  :D
I Aear cân ven na mar ~ 'The Sea calls us Home.'

For whatever we lose (like a you or a me)
it's always ourselves we find in the sea
~ e e cummings

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Re: Sindarin poems

Post by Lúthien » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:37 am

Suilad Edhelhael;
ah yes, I took that file down b/c I had changed too many things.
I'll record a new version soon.

here's the most recent version, alternatingly:
Sindarin
original by J.R.R.Tolkien
Sindarin to English


I*nimwaloth i bain a phant,
I laiss in end calen nadhras,
A egennir galad vin lant
En elin vi uialthiliol
Tinúviel i lilthas ias
Na lind o *simp dholen a brand,
A vi finnil dîn glîn ennas,
A vi chammad dîn míriol.


The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall andfair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinuviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering.


The white blossoms, they fair and full,
The leaves they long, green the pasture,
A light was seen in the clearing
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinuviel she danced there
To lofty music of a hidden flute,
And in her hair a glint was there,
as in her mantle, shining like a jewel.

Nu laiss Beren erui padas,
Ab aegais ring dad túliel,
Ennas i *elduin sirias
Ho nûr a erui reniol.
Min laiss en-gwaloth tíriel
Glinthant ’lassui mellys ennas
Na choll a rainc dîn derthiel
Sui esgal finnil dîn aphadol.


There Beren came from mountains cold,
And lost he wandered under leaves,
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
Andher hair like shadow following.


Under leaves Beren alone wandered,
After (from) mountain peaks cold down coming,
There the Elven-river flowed
Sad and alone, wandering.
Between blossom leaves gazing
He glanced (at) flowers of gold happily there
Upon her mantle and her sleeves resting,
Like shadow her hair following.

I lûth nestant i dail naegrol
Berthennin dhyl athreviad;
Agamp geleg ho vell, bragol,
Mabant ithildim thiliol.
Trî 'aladhremmin *eldorath
He dregas fair na dail lilthol
Awarthant Beren reniad
Erui vi daur dhínen lastol.


Enchantment healed his weary feet
That over hills were doomed to roam;
Andforth he hastened, strong and fleet,
And grasped at moonbeams glistening.
Through woven woods in Elvenhome
She lightly fled on dancing feet,
And left him lonely still to roam
In the silent forest listening.


The spell, it healed the feet, hurting
doomed hills to over-wander;
He leaped swiftly strong, sudden,
Seized moonlight glistening.
Through tree-woven elven-home
She fled promptly with feet dancing,
She forsook Beren to stray
Alone in the forest silent, listening.

Sui laiss dulus i thail ellint
Lastant ennas lhyss reviol,
A vi imlaid thyrin i lind,
Ennas eithelui tuiol.
Si *nimwaloth i tharn, thinnol
a thloss ab loss vin chelch thind
laiss e-mrethil vi daur dharthol
hain sui gwilwileth sí dannol.


He heard there oft the flying sound
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound
Whispering fell the beachen leaves
In (the) wintry woodland wavering.


Like poplar-leaves (of) feet swift
He heard there the sound flying,
And in valleys hidden the tunes,
there like a spring welling up.
Now white blossoms it withered, fading,
and whisper after whisper in the cold grey
leaves of beech in the wood, waiting
they like butterflies here falling.

Ún chir hen revias palan
Laiss caedennin annan ennas,
Nu 'ilgalad a nui gúran
Vi menel edhring míriol.
Nu ithildim coll dîn tinnas
Sui caw amon, haeron a brann
Nadail dîn peliol, lilthas
I chîth gelebren hwiniol.


He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hill-top high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn.
A mist of silver quivering.


He did not find her, he wandered far
On the fallen leaves there,
Below starlight and under crescent moon
In the freezing heaven, sparkling .
Below moonlight her mantle glinted,
Like top of hill, far and high
At feet spreading, she danced,
The mist of silver twirling.

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol,
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil,
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol,
A nen udul o loss glavrol.
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol.


When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
Abouther feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Uponthe grass untroubling.


She came again at winter fleeing
Her song released the spring
Like swallow and rain falling
And water came out of snow, babbling
He saw sprout niphredil
At her feet, he healed following
He desired to dance with (the) lady
Singing upon pasture untroubling.

He dregas ad, dan ho nerant,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
Eneg edhellen dîn estant;
adhor ennas lû hen lastol.
Ne phost thent Beren, túliel
Na lûth ed lam dîn gen gwedhant
Barthannen si Tinúviel
Dorthas vi rainc dîn thiliol.


Again she fled, but swift he came,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel
That in his arms lay glistening.


She fled again, but than he ran,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called out her elvish name;
she stopped there at that time, listening.
In that short moment Beren, coming
by spell of his tongue she was bound
Now doomed was Tinúviel
She dwelled in his arms, glistering.

Beren tirant na chîn iell
Vi 'wath finnil dîn velui,
O elenath aglar menel
Egent ennas i míriol.
Tinúviel *elvanui
Elleth alfirin *edhelhael,
O hon ring finnil fuinui
A rainc gelebrin thiliol.†


As Beren looked into her eyes
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering.
Tinuviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maidenelven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.


Beren gazed into eyes of the girl
In the shadow of her hair sweet,
From the starry host, the glory of the sky
He saw there it sparkling.
Tinúviel elven-fair
Elf-maiden immortal elven-wise
About him cast her hair shadowy
And arms silvery, glistering.

I dhoer manath únodui,
Trî annon dûr, angren thamas
Am ered gondeb, hithui
A thaur dhúatheb angoeol.
I aearon min hain dorthas,
Govanner hai na vedui,
Pelanner io anann ennas
Úníniel vi daur linnol.


Long was the way that fate them bore,
O'er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more,
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.


theleagues of Fate (were) countless,
Through dark door, iron hall,
Over mountains stony, full of cloud,
And wood full of nightshade utterly dreadful.
The Great sea between them lay,
They met again in the end,
They faded away long ago there,
Sorrowless, in the forest, singing.
A! Suilannon le - elin velui, dîn dolog, aduial lúthad!

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