How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 am

How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:40 am

I shall draft an answer for you a bit later, although I'm afraid I can't address the question you seem most interested in, as I am not oriented that way: as a shaman, I have never met God (or Satan), but I have met great angels. Also, as someone who largely stands outside the ordinary human experience as a autistic person, I've noticed that most humans seem to shape god(s) in their own image.

I will say more later.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:48 am

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:40 am
I shall draft an answer for you a bit later, although I'm afraid I can't address the question you seem most interested in, as I am not oriented that way: as a shaman, I have never met God (or Satan), but I have met great angels. Also, as someone who largely stands outside the ordinary human experience as a autistic person, I've noticed that most humans seem to shape god(s) in their own image.
As we should. We create the Gods. They do not create us.

In my experience, "angels" or apotheosis instructs.

My instruction was to think more demographically.

What did your apotheosis, if we can call your experience that, instruct?

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 am
How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.
Dear Gnostic Bishop, I'd like to say that what I'm about to say is an opinion, but it's becoming a perfectly provable fact. :)
The Bible doesn't talk about God in the first place.
This has been discovered by a group of Italian scholars... and by the Eldar, who are people belonging to an ancient generation of men, born long before Cro-Magnons.
They found out that the old testament was fashioned by a group of religious men called the Masoretes.
They put together many ancient tales from Babylon to provide their religion with a strong basis of evidence, making cuts in them and deliberately altering some parts so that the main character of most of those tales might look like God.
Or, at least, like the "God" they wanted people to believe in in order to have more power over the masses.
Need for power, that's the reason why the Bible was created in the first place. S)
Because the main character of most of those tales wasn't God, it was Yakhwakh, a captain of the Elokh vanguard on earth.
The Elokh were once (a veeeeery long time ago) the inhabitants of Mars.
When some of them came to earth, looking for a chance to rebuild their life after their planet had been made uninhabitable, they were worshipped as deities by the peoples of Babylon, who then made tales on them.
I cannot give you evidence for all this right now, but this is what I know.
I'd like to suggest you take a look to what many Babylonian sculptors used to depict: humanoid creatures flying rocket ships.

God is not responsible for the immoral acts described in the Bible.
Some of them where part of the Elokh philosophy and thinking: they were warriors and conquerors.
They are almost extinct now, I've been told that there are just ten or twenty of them left.

I can understand you if you won't believe to what I just said, that makes perfectly sense... but please, beware of the Bible, do not believe until you get the chance to know.
That's the best course of action sometimes. :)
If you have read any of the critical books on God,
I used to read the Bible, in Hebrew, you know.
And if one knows Hebrew well, it doesn't take much to see that the writer isn't talking about God and that the meaning of many things has been stretched.
Really...
E.g.: "Two anashim dropped out of the sky, riding a flaming plate"
- Literal translation: "Two masculine individuals dropped out of the sky riding a flaming plate"
- Translation given by the Masoretes: "Two angels came down from heaven carried by the glory of God"

I assure you... it is REALLY like that ! :D
Meaning absolutely no offence, that's just what you can read. :)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm

Mildir

Even if every word you say is true, it does not really speak to the issues of the O.P.

There are tons of such tales as what you have put but till firm evidence is found, it is just another ancient alien tale.

I see the bible talking of God but not some guy in the sky God but the God that is in each of us in the Gnostic Christian sense.

That is more like this type of thinking. More Buddhist like than theistic like.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

My bottom line on aliens is that if they were not bright enough to sustain themselves and thrive, given how far advanced they would have had to be above us, then they are not worthy of consideration.

I am always open and recognize that their are things out there yet to be discovered, even at the ESP level, so if you have any links to anything you think I should see, I will be please to further this area of discourse.

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:55 pm

Thank you for answering, first of all. :)
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm
Mildir

Even if every word you say is true, it does not really speak to the issues of the O.P.
Sorry, but what do you mean by O.P. ?
There are tons of such tales as what you have put but till firm evidence is found, it is just another ancient alien tale.
The problem is now different: the evidence that the Elokh existed and that they were referred to as "the Elohim" is already there.
It has just been whitewashed, covered up.
So, the problem is actually to demonstrate that the evidence for their existence is being kept secret... and that's quite a piece of work... :blush2:
I see the bible talking of God but not some guy in the sky God but the God that is in each of us
I suspected it, it's just that your first post was more focused on the "what's described in the Bible" aspect...
My bottom line on aliens is that if they were not bright enough to sustain themselves and thrive, given how far advanced they would have had to be above us, then they are not worthy of consideration.
Are we humans bright enough to sustain ourselves and thrive ? :blush2:
And if not, what does that make us ? :D

Anyway, the Elokh were perfectly able to thrive, but they were ONLY able to do it by killing others.
As a consequence, the universe "killed" them, putting an end to their massacres.
They had a philosophy, but I'm sure you'd have defined them worse than humans, maybe far worse.
I am always open and recognize that their are things out there yet to be discovered, even at the ESP level, so if you have any links to anything you think I should see, I will be please to further this area of discourse.
Sadly, most of the material I could direct you to is in Italian.
I have a few links to English pages, I guess, here is one of them: https://maurobiglino.com/libri/the-bibl ... about-god/


Mildir
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:29 pm

Mildir wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:40 pm
but please, beware of the Bible, do not believe until you get the chance to know.
That's the best course of action sometimes. :)
I'd like to point out that by this I do not absolutely mean that one who wants to believe doesn't have the right to do it.
If believing is what one deems right, one must do it.
It's just... I think that time makes every belief collapse, sooner or later.
And that what stands in the end is the truth. :)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:19 am

Mildir

O.P. means opening post or opening poster.

You do not like that the aliens lived by killing but that is exactly how mankind sustains itself.

Almost all species do. Life always feeds on death. It has to. No?

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:08 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm
Mildir

Even if every word you say is true, it does not really speak to the issues of the O.P.
That's because I wanted to address the problem upstream and I hadn't yet wholly answered.
The main question was:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 am
How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.


It is important, in my opinion, to understand that God isn't involved at all in those facts.
It may be useful to know that the real doers of some terrifying deeds reported in the Bible (and I'm talking about the old testament) were in fact creatures similar to humans, as regards both mentality and criminal disposition.
That being said, I think that for the common people dealing with a kind of God in which they can at least partly recognize themselves (i.e.: a god partly moral and partly immoral, exactly like human beings) is more satisfying (or rewarding) than dealing with a kind of God which makes them seem inferior and primitive.
Some people aren't just interested in delving into some issues, they'd ignore anything, but those who know the old testament do not ignore what you are talking about.
They accept it.
If anyone points out that there are immoral facts in the Bible they play them down (I saw it happening a lot of times) and I've always thought that they do so because those facts do not REALLY bother them.
They may not admit it, not even to themselves, but they think: "It's ok if God has killed thousands of enemies in a remote past. I'd have done the same, if I had had His power and authority".
And how many of those men would NOT use power to destroy their enemies (for example) if it were given to them ?
The Church itself used the Bible (and other strategies) to control the masses and gain more power in order to defeat its many enemies.

However, this does not apply to the average churchgoer.
I think the average churchgoer is too busy living a normal and full life to even begin to study the old testament (not to mention the Quran).
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:19 am

You do not like that the aliens lived by killing but that is exactly how mankind sustains itself.

Almost all species do. Life always feeds on death. It has to. No?
That is not what I have found.
Life cannot but feed on death in its early evolutionary stages.
But this isn't a permanent state of affairs: life can become more refined than any of us could ever imagine.
I know of ecosystems were killing animals or plants is not required at all, I know that life on our planet can evolve and reach the beauty and the perfection of those ecosystems.
I suppose that this is the main difference between a normal person and me: I see an alternative to the way of living we are all used to.
A concrete one, I mean.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am

Mildir wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:08 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm
Mildir

Even if every word you say is true, it does not really speak to the issues of the O.P.
That's because I wanted to address the problem upstream and I hadn't yet wholly answered.
The main question was:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 am
How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.


It is important, in my opinion, to understand that God isn't involved at all in those facts.
It may be useful to know that the real doers of some terrifying deeds reported in the Bible (and I'm talking about the old testament) were in fact creatures similar to humans, as regards both mentality and criminal disposition.
That being said, I think that for the common people dealing with a kind of God in which they can at least partly recognize themselves (i.e.: a god partly moral and partly immoral, exactly like human beings) is more satisfying (or rewarding) than dealing with a kind of God which makes them seem inferior and primitive.
Some people aren't just interested in delving into some issues, they'd ignore anything, but those who know the old testament do not ignore what you are talking about.
They accept it.
If anyone points out that there are immoral facts in the Bible they play them down (I saw it happening a lot of times) and I've always thought that they do so because those facts do not REALLY bother them.
They may not admit it, not even to themselves, but they think: "It's ok if God has killed thousands of enemies in a remote past. I'd have done the same, if I had had His power and authority".
And how many of those men would NOT use power to destroy their enemies (for example) if it were given to them ?
The Church itself used the Bible (and other strategies) to control the masses and gain more power in order to defeat its many enemies.

However, this does not apply to the average churchgoer.
I think the average churchgoer is too busy living a normal and full life to even begin to study the old testament (not to mention the Quran).
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:19 am

You do not like that the aliens lived by killing but that is exactly how mankind sustains itself.

Almost all species do. Life always feeds on death. It has to. No?
That is not what I have found.
Life cannot but feed on death in its early evolutionary stages.
But this isn't a permanent state of affairs: life can become more refined than any of us could ever imagine.
I know of ecosystems were killing animals or plants is not required at all, I know that life on our planet can evolve and reach the beauty and the perfection of those ecosystems.
I suppose that this is the main difference between a normal person and me: I see an alternative to the way of living we are all used to.
A concrete one, I mean.
Thanks for this.

I have two questions.

First, ----- "I know of ecosystems were killing animals or plants is not required at all,"'

Plant life perhaps. What other ecosystem with sentient creatures did you have in mind?


Second, ----- ""It's ok if God has killed thousands of enemies in a remote past. I'd have done the same, if I had had His power and authority"

That is a perfect example of what the O.P. speaks to.

If moral, those who say that should instead be wondering why a God who can cure as well as kill always chooses the moral low ground and kills instead of the moral high ground of curing.

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:50 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am

I have two questions.

First, ----- "I know of ecosystems were killing animals or plants is not required at all,"'

Plant life perhaps.
As I'm sure that you are very well aware of, even plants kill each other to survive (take locust trees).
That is, of course, in the world we know...
What other ecosystem with sentient creatures did you have in mind?
This isn't a question that can be given an answer to merely in terms of human science.
I mean, I could describe to you what it looks like, but you could never understand what makes things possible, what makes them work, unless you approach the concept of spirit science.
It is the science that men never discovered, the missing piece in all their reasonings.
I'm trying to explain its main principles at length in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=1346

Imagine a world where every creature can feel the emotions of the other creatures and their desires, just by opening its mind.
Imagine a world where all the beings, plants and animals, have based their evolution on the compassion generated by this ability.
Plants producing highly calorific and protein-rich fruits, animals eating them instead of meat, helping each plant propagate its seeds while the plant itself helps them live.
Different reproductive rhythms: no one is born until one dies (IF they die).
Everything intrinsic in the genetics of every single creature.

Because, you know, when the thinking changes, genetics complies. :)
And a world evolves past the need for evil.
If moral, those who say that should instead be wondering why a God who can cure as well as kill always chooses the moral low ground and kills instead of the moral high ground of curing.
I think that the deep thinking of most human beings hasn't changed since the time of the Ancient Greeks.
Remember their gods ? :D
They killed even more than they cured.
And they were created by the Greeks, they were a fundamental part of their imagination.
Such is the "God" depicted in the Bible: a creation of men, which men (especially those who created the Bible) like because they can at least partly see themselves in him, just like the Greeks saw themselves in a god who raped women (and Zeus did !).

In my view it's not just a matter of wondering why one chooses a moral low ground instead of a high one, it's a matter of how much you can understand compassion/find it embraceable.
Most men understand a shallow level of compassion (for example: giving something to someone if that someone deserves it).
A little slice of humanity understands a deep level of compassion (for example: giving something to someone for the pleasure of giving it).
The "God" of the old testament had a shallow level of compassion (he gave life when someone deserved it, he gave death when someone deserved it).
It is therefore obvious that most of the common people aren't really bothered by him taking (for example) revenge.
They have the same level of compassion, they can understand him.
They'll never think "why did He choose to kill him or her, if He could as well cure their evil?".
They will instead think "if He killed him or her, it was because they deserved it".

So many people look moral from the outside but aren't in fact.
Those who read about God taking revenge and think "I'd have done the same", for example...
I'm sure many of them regularly go to church.

However, in my very personal view, being compassionate is far more important (and far more difficult) than being moral...

Apologies for scattering ideas, I hope what I wrote makes some sense... :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:40 pm

No problem on your last Mildir.

Comparing real life to a spiritual life that cannot be proven, I find foolish.

You mentioned plants and I would just say what should refute your view as unworkable. Spanish fly trap.

You said --- "he gave death when someone deserved it).

He also gave death when no one deserved it.

That is the just of why I put the question.

I will have a look at your post but as you can see by that little reply I put, I do not think I will be able to get on your page much.

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DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:36 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:40 pm
No problem on your last Mildir.

Comparing real life to a spiritual life that cannot be proven, I find foolish.
Imagining a connection between what's commonly defined as "real life" and spiritual life and trying to find out how that connection works, I find very smart. :D
Shaolin monks, Tibetan Buddhist meditation practitioners and other people who think the same have reached abilities such as self-induced neural blockade (in other words: you don't feel pain if you don't want to), aural energy extraction (e.g.: drawing from food three times the energy it actually contains) and what many call premonition.
Can the inhabitants of the shining Western world say the same?
No, they drive cars and even fly airplanes... but are still afraid of what comes after they die, still afraid of "paranormal" manifestations, when they happen to see any, and still fully unaware of the reasons why they exist in the first place.
If they tried to find out the connection between spirit and reality as hard as they always try to make money, there would be no need for money at all, as they would be like the Eldar: able to use their mind in order to solve their problems (including injuries and long distance journeys).
You mentioned plants and I would just say what should refute your view as unworkable. Spanish fly trap.
I didn't mention plants in general, though.
I mentioned highly evolved plants.
And flytraps are among the most primitive ones, of course they need someone else's death to live.
But they can change, as well as many other vegetal and animal creatures.
You said --- "he gave death when someone deserved it).

He also gave death when no one deserved it.
Are you talking about the plague of the firstborn ?
That was for punishing.
Punishing was needed, according to the traditional biblical God.
As I see it, saying that someone deserves to die and kill them is just as immoral as saying that.
It isn't more acceptable to me.
I will have a look at your post but as you can see by that little reply I put, I do not think I will be able to get on your page much.
No problem.
I just hoped it might help you understand why I think certain things are possible.
Because it's not easy for me to explain it in a few lines... :)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:26 am

That is the problem when trying to explain an imaginary realm that has nothing to do with reality.

"Punishing was needed, according to the traditional biblical God."

Sure, and I would have no problem with that but God punished the innocent instead of the guilty and I do have a problem with that.

Do you?

You do not seem to care if the innocent or the guilty were punished.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:10 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:26 am
That is the problem when trying to explain an imaginary realm that has nothing to do with reality.
Every imaginary thing is a potential source of realities and, as such, worth explaining.
And, after all, isn't reality itself just what people have been able to imagine so far ? :)
"Punishing was needed, according to the traditional biblical God."

Sure, and I would have no problem with that but God punished the innocent instead of the guilty and I do have a problem with that.

Do you?

You do not seem to care if the innocent or the guilty were punished.
>>>
Mildir wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:36 pm
As I see it, saying that someone deserves to die and kill them is just as immoral as saying that (that is: that punishing was needed).
It isn't more acceptable to me.
Sorry, I thought I'd made myself clear.
Punishing-is-always-immoral.
No matter who, because if you are a God who can cure someone's evil, punishing them instead proves that you like violence or need it somehow.
That is what I think and will always think.
(Of course if I were forced to choose I'd choose a God who punishes the guilty and not the innocent. But he'd be still an unrighteous, ungodly God, for me)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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