How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

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Mildir
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Mildir wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:10 pm
Punishing-is-always-immoral.
No matter who, because if you are a God who can cure someone's evil, punishing them instead proves that you like violence or need it somehow.
And you may call me a bleeding heart, but when did Jesus punish anyone in the new testament ?
He forgave, even the most evil ones, because he could cure the evil inside them by doing so, there would have been no point in punishing them and he understood it.
He chose to fight darkness with light, hatred with love.
That's what I call an intelligent choice (because, as Martin Luther used to say, darkness cannot drive out darkness). :)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:48 am

A decent view that I share. In terms of God.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:52 am

Mildir wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:33 pm
Mildir wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:10 pm
Punishing-is-always-immoral.
No matter who, because if you are a God who can cure someone's evil, punishing them instead proves that you like violence or need it somehow.
And you may call me a bleeding heart, but when did Jesus punish anyone in the new testament ?
He forgave, even the most evil ones, because he could cure the evil inside them by doing so, there would have been no point in punishing them and he understood it.
He chose to fight darkness with light, hatred with love.
That's what I call an intelligent choice (because, as Martin Luther used to say, darkness cannot drive out darkness). :)
He punished the merchants at the temple so if punishing is always wrong, then Jesus was wrong.

You are correct on if God punishes after death or even on earth, if you believe in the fantasy Gods, but there is nothing with society punishing here so as to protect itself.

I would put a murderer in the best jail conditions I could afford, but he would still be in jail.

Even you would jail a murderer. I hope.

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DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:35 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:52 am
He punished the merchants at the temple so if punishing is always wrong, then Jesus was wrong.
Wait... he overturned the tables where they were having their activities, he didn't kill them !
He was acting in anger, the anger was legitimate and it didn't go so far as to harm them.
There's a big difference between this and the guy in the old testament having children butchered because he wanted their omentum (the fat surrounding the entrails).
I would put a murderer in the best jail conditions I could afford, but he would still be in jail.
I'm not entirely sure of what you mean by "fantasy gods" (maybe the Valar ? :D ).
Anyway, yes, I'd put a murderer in jail.
But instead of forcing them to work I'd force them to go along a particular path: a path through which they would eventually understand what their nature is, who they are, whether or not they want to make people suffer.
And that would be just the beginning of something bigger.

Evil cannot be cancelled, it needs to be relocated.
Eventually these guys, the bad guys, need to be free in a place where they can express their true nature without hindrance.
Far from those who want to live in peace, of course.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:33 pm

"Wait... he overturned the tables where they were having their activities, he didn't kill them !"

We were talking punishment. Not killing.

" the anger was legitimate and it didn't go so far as to harm them."

Perhaps the anger was justified, but Jesus punished the wrong people.

The Temple Rabbis had given permission to the merchants. They are the ones who should have been chastised. Not those who had every right under Jewish law to be doing what they were doing.

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DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:42 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:33 pm
We were talking punishment. Not killing.
I thought we were talking about both...
But, at any rate, I wouldn't say he punished the merchants.
I mean, looking at how he acted one cannot be sure he was intentioned to punish them: it looks to me like he was just angry, possibly scandalized.
Anger always leads to mistakes, even if it's Jesus who feels it.
I think this has been one of his most human moments.
The Temple Rabbis had given permission to the merchants.
Well, yes, but couldn't that have happened because the merchants wanted to stay in there in the first place ?
I'm not trying to justify Jesus' actions, but I don't think you can put all the blame on the rabbis...
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 am

I was assigning authority to the Rabbis. Not blame.

I do not agree that anger always leads to mistakes.

I imagine that the North was angry with the South for their slave holding ideas and actions before their anger moved them to end slavery in the U.S.

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DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 am
I imagine that the North was angry with the South for their slave holding ideas and actions before their anger moved them to end slavery in the U.S.
And how many people died in the process ?
Would you say that every dead man was not a mistake, just because their death has eventually led to the end of slavery ?
Would you say that the end justifies the means ?
I wouldn't.

The fact that sometimes evil appears necessary to achieve good doesn't justify its use, in my opinion.
If I were a slave and the only way to get my freedom were killing someone, for example, I'd wait until I find another way.
Does that make me a fool ? :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Mildir » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:04 pm

When you don't know any way to achieve a result without using evil, the first step to take in order to find a way is NOT use evil.
And if you want to know why, in my opinion, men know so few ways to get something without using evil, I'll tell you that it's because they seldom take this first step.
So many of them are more interested in the results than the way, but they can't see that it's the way what makes the results good.
In fact, every result achieved through the way of evil is not going to last.
As the entire human society demonstrates.

The only reason why American slaves have not completely returned to be slaves is that there are other forms of slavery today, more subtle.
If someone hadn't invented those forms, though, they'd be back to square one.
I'd stake my life on it.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm
[...] My bottom line on aliens is that if they were not bright enough to sustain themselves and thrive, given how far advanced they would have had to be above us, then they are not worthy of consideration.
I must say I fully agree with this statement. Today's 'aliens' are affine to early medieval "Faries/Fair Folk", just with a slightly different social 'spin'. "I was elf-shot last night, damn it! That's why I cant work today!" ==> "The Saturnalians beamed me aboard their ship last night and experimented on me -- ain't no way I can work today, boss!"

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:36 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 am
[...] I imagine that the North was angry with the South for their slave holding ideas and actions before their anger moved them to end slavery in the U.S.
Actually, it's more that they were upset that the Southern planter class had an unfair advantage via a slave labor force (I speak of the standard Capitalists of the era, not morally dedicated people such as the Abolitionists). And then for the poor southerners, it really was a "War of Northern Aggression" from their POV after the conflict began and their lands were invaded. There was a whole mix of motives in that conflict on both sides.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:26 pm

Mildir wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:25 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 am
I imagine that the North was angry with the South for their slave holding ideas and actions before their anger moved them to end slavery in the U.S.
And how many people died in the process ?
Would you say that every dead man was not a mistake, just because their death has eventually led to the end of slavery ?
Would you say that the end justifies the means ?
I wouldn't.

The fact that sometimes evil appears necessary to achieve good doesn't justify its use, in my opinion.
If I were a slave and the only way to get my freedom were killing someone, for example, I'd wait until I find another way.
Does that make me a fool ? :D
You tell me. :D

I would say more like unobservant and not enough of an esoteric ecumenist like me.

You end by saying you would wait to find another way.

Is that not what the slaves did? Yes.

They waited for the moral men of the free world to recognize their first duty as free men, that being to insure that all in the country share in that freedom.

That was the wish of the founding fathers.

It was a hard choice that would cost many lives, yes, but not as many lives, in the long run, as if the North had not ended slavery. Slavery is what killed Rome. Rome II must not fall.

So to Rome II, yes, the end justifies the means used to save the United States and unify the States forever.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:32 pm

Mildir wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:04 pm
When you don't know any way to achieve a result without using evil, the first step to take in order to find a way is NOT use evil.
And if you want to know why, in my opinion, men know so few ways to get something without using evil, I'll tell you that it's because they seldom take this first step.
So many of them are more interested in the results than the way, but they can't see that it's the way what makes the results good.
In fact, every result achieved through the way of evil is not going to last.
As the entire human society demonstrates.

The only reason why American slaves have not completely returned to be slaves is that there are other forms of slavery today, more subtle.
If someone hadn't invented those forms, though, they'd be back to square one.
I'd stake my life on it.
I disagree with much of what you put.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:34 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 pm
[...] My bottom line on aliens is that if they were not bright enough to sustain themselves and thrive, given how far advanced they would have had to be above us, then they are not worthy of consideration.
I must say I fully agree with this statement. Today's 'aliens' are affine to early medieval "Faries/Fair Folk", just with a slightly different social 'spin'. "I was elf-shot last night, damn it! That's why I cant work today!" ==> "The Saturnalians beamed me aboard their ship last night and experimented on me -- ain't no way I can work today, boss!"
Thanks for the agreement.

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:40 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:36 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 am
[...] I imagine that the North was angry with the South for their slave holding ideas and actions before their anger moved them to end slavery in the U.S.
Actually, it's more that they were upset that the Southern planter class had an unfair advantage via a slave labor force (I speak of the standard Capitalists of the era, not morally dedicated people such as the Abolitionists). And then for the poor southerners, it really was a "War of Northern Aggression" from their POV after the conflict began and their lands were invaded. There was a whole mix of motives in that conflict on both sides.
Exactly. Too many chiefs/motives and not enough Indians to keep them in line and stop them from killing within the commons.

When that happens, the common rebels.

They chose a worthy target in slavery. It was killing immigration as there was a reputation of working immigrants harder because they had less value to the slave owners.

Regards
DL

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