Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

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Lúthien
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Re: Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

Post by Lúthien » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:48 pm

Davy Willis Lee wrote:Most likely "to tickle (i.e., amuses) someone to Ploppers with people (i.e., confuse or psychologically misdirect them)"
I see ... somehow I did not capture the structure of that line:
There is no reason to paint the left hand path with any malice even if it tickles the atheist Lavans to f with people.

It's like one of those 3D inside-outside illusions and you are stuck in one interpretation. So I read that line somewhat analogue to this one:

There is no reason to paint the mailbox with quasi-artistic elegance even if it causes uncle Mike 2 confuse his neighbours with cats.
(... even if it causes Uncle Mike (named 'Mike') to (actively) confuse those of his neighbours who happen to have cats)
instead of
There is no reason to paint the mailbox with quasi-artistic elegance even if it causes uncle's mikes 2 confuse his neighbours with cats.
(... even if it causes the microphones of (our) uncle to not be able to differentiate between his neighbours and 'cats' [in general]).

So it was both that I read the atheist Lavans as "the atheist whose name is Lavans (i.e. William Lavans)", and to f with people as something like "(we're going) to Tipperary (together) with people" (where I also missed what _f_ meant).
Davy Willis Lee wrote:Anton LaVey so-called 'Satanism' is just sociopathy wrapped in bling.
Indeed. It is very silly. You can tell even apart from anything else by the second capital (LaVey) in his surname.

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Re: Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

Post by Lúthien » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:21 pm

I wrote a long reply to this, but it's on my work computer. So I'll post that tomorrow, here's something about the actual poem by St John that struck me.
I will paste some lines from my own meditation reports after each stanza that I feel comes close to what is voiced in that stanza.
Stanzas Of The Soul
St. John of the Cross

1. One dark night,
fired with love's urgent longings
- ah, the sheer grace! -
I went out unseen,
my house being now all stilled.
Then I sit for a while, I stretch out my arms and look along them, over the dark blue sea down there. I remember the previous meditations, and think about the jewels of light that are made from the light after every meditation. I have kept them from the first time, and sort of recharge them. I turn the palms of my hands upwards and there they are, a blaze of light. Beautiful.

2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.
I did get into that searching, sad mood again that I also had last time, before I actually got on the mountain. There also was a slightly hopeless feeling of 'my goodness, what kind of a person am I, doomed to keep on searching without even knowing what to look for'.
But there came some encounters, with the same sort of abstraction like with Manwë and Varda, but much more changeable. Like she - if it was Yavanna! - manifested herself now as the shadow under a tree, and now as a light ..
(...)
And then I really saw something .. like a yellow/golden ladder, hanging down from the crown of a tree. I went over there .. it was almost like swimming .. and climbed it. Upstairs was a wooden floor, like in a tree hut, and the roof was a large leafy branch.

3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.
Varda stooped, reached all the way down to me and carefully put a point of light in the palm of my right hand: a small star. I pressed my hand to my breast and it made my body light up, like the silver glimmerings of Telperion.
4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.
When I arrive there, there is again the sense of all those others ... but none of them really manifesting themselves. I walk around the mound, clockwise direction, and eventually walk towards the trees, and stand there for a while to feel the light. This time, Laurelin is much brighter than Telperion, almost so bright that I need to pinch my eyes. It feels very warm on my skin, too. I turn around, and sit down on the grass, with my back to the trees, and prepare to leave for Arda.
But then something very unexpected happens. I sense that girl of last time at my right, and put out my right arm as in an inviting gesture. She comes, and sits on my lap, and I hug her, first without words. After a while I ask her what her name is and she says Meríthiel. Her hair is dark. She then says .. and you're Lúthien...
- Yes, I am.

5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.
- I am glad you came.
- So am I. I cannot say how glad I am to have found you all.
- You are a late-comer, aren't you?
- Yes, I am. It is all new to me, and I do not understand half of it yet. Probably, a lot less.

(I sense that in the same way that she seems about the equivalent of 8 yrs to me, I appear about like 13 to her)
- You must go back, don't you?
- Yes, I can not stay here. Not yet, at least. Not for quite some time.
- That makes me sad ...
- Please don't feel sad. I will come back .. in a sense, I will never leave again, for this is where I am truly home. I will never abandon you.

Note: this is where my feeling differs from that in the poem. This other - her name is Mérithiel, btw - is my sister, or rather she feels like a twin sister. In these first meetings she was younger than I was (I felt like I was about 13), in later meditations she's about the same age or slightly older.
The feeling of kinship, and "belonging" are very strong.

6. Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.
We just sat for a while, and I stroked her hair.
- You must do a lot of things back there?
- Yes, I must, on Arda. But that's good. That is how it is supposed to be.
- You better do it well then ...
- I'm doing my best ... I think I am doing quite well, actually.

She smiles, and we sit silent in the warm glow of the Trees, looking out over the dark distance, towards Tirion, and further, over Tol Eressëa, and beyond ..

7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.
This is so wonderful, to find this deep feeling of kinship that has the effect of a musical chord that puts everything in a perspective where it makes sense. Where have you been all this time? Or, where have I been?
8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies.
There I walk to Telperion, and Meríthiel is there as well. We stand before Telperion, in the shimmering silver light.
Suddenly, I feel truly happy, calm and so much at home.
(...)
At this time, there is not much more to say about this. It's all about just *experiencing* the feeling of connectedness, of feeling home. It is amazing, but also very basic and simple, and without fuss. I think we sat there for at least 15 minutes, and we did speak a bit, though nothing that I directly remember.


Of course this is not all there is to it. But I found this sense of "re-uniting" something that I thought lost (or rather: "felt" lost) remarkably similar to how St John describes it.

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Re: Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:16 pm

Lúthien wrote:[...] It's like one of those 3D inside-outside illusions and you are stuck in one interpretation. So I read that line somewhat analogue to this one:

There is no reason to paint the mailbox with quasi-artistic elegance even if it causes uncle Mike 2 confuse his neighbours with cats.
(... even if it causes Uncle Mike (named 'Mike') to (actively) confuse those of his neighbours who happen to have cats)
instead of
There is no reason to paint the mailbox with quasi-artistic elegance even if it causes uncle's mikes 2 confuse his neighbours with cats.
(... even if it causes the microphones of (our) uncle to not be able to differentiate between his neighbours and 'cats' [in general]).
That's gold, mon, gold!!!

{I'm serious -- you're good at interspersing comedy.}
Davy Willis Lee wrote:Anton LaVey so-called 'Satanism' is just sociopathy wrapped in bling.
Indeed. It is very silly. You can tell even apart from anything else by the second capital (LaVey) in his surname.
Yeah -- kind of reminds me of a certain Lord Floparius of the Royal Dragon House of DiffleBaum that we once both knew.

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Re: Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:30 am

ginnie wrote:Luthien, good catch! Well, sometimes I can be full of it, I should have double checked, I know I was thinking of some particular practice but not Subud, which is Sufi. That's right hand path so... Humble pie for me. :dontknow:
If you can somehow recover the name of the practice, please let us know. You see, one of my "special interests" is cultural anthropology, and I have studied quite a few cultures. I do remember reading about a type of ritualized cannibalism among certain isolated tribal people in Papua New Guinea which manifested a disease they called "kuru" ("to shiver") which was invariably fatal -- but that was later shown to be a prion caused disease.

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Re: Some lectures by Stephan Hoeller on gnostic subjects

Post by Ginnie » Sat May 04, 2013 8:25 pm

Dave, I have looked but for the life of me not sure where I got that from. I'll keep looking.

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