Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

including those referred to as 'spiritual' by those concerned
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Broken_Mirror33
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Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Broken_Mirror33 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:40 pm

I have recently begun reading a book recommended by Miguel in an "Abraxas Brief": Above, Below, Within. So, I thought it would make a good forum discussion. In particular, the book brings up a novel take on the supernatural, which I have never even considered. The idea that the planets cause effects here on Earth that are beyond the realm of scientific understanding.

Now, I would call that "supernatural," wouldn't you? Of course, the author's notion is much more nuanced than that and he does make a compelling argument, but that's the gist of it. He also uses this understanding as the basis of a system of magic and claims all magical systems are based on it. (I don't know about you, but this book brings out the "Elven" in me.)

But I want to hear others' takes on the matter:
If the planets are, indeed, responsible for producing these "magical" effects here on Earth, would you consider this as a supernatural phenomenon?

...Almost forgot, here's the link to the 'Abraxas Brief' (you can pick up the book in the show notes):
https://youtu.be/rBLdkWXPHQU

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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:17 pm

In my opinion "supernatural" is a word bound to a world we ought to leave behind: the world in which "nature" means "all we know and can explain" and everything beyond this is "supernatural"... S)
There may be a thousand different realities, but there is only one nature.
Which implies that nothing is above it, nothing breaks it.

I would have a lot to say about ceremonial magic... I prefer not to do it here, though... :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Broken_Mirror33 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:01 pm

There definitely is a supernatural and there must be if science is to evolve. Because there are most certainly things with which science cannot answer and these things by definition are "supernatural" phenomena. Realize, science still cannot fully explain space and time, which are fundamental to our understanding of anything. As for the word itself (a matter of semantics), I am neutral here. The supernatural doesn't "break" nature it breaks our understanding of nature--it implies it must be reexamined and explained in further detail (in light of new evidence). So what? Simply rewrite the science books. Like the recent discovery of gravity waves, which in my opinion, shows Minkowski spacetime to be false or just a mathematical model which doesn't accurately portray nature.

I respect your opinion, but my opinion is that science describes the least of things; the least of what something is. The spiritual bows to the endless in everything; the mystery.

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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:05 pm

Science is designed to deal with the quantifiable: if one can't define a useful metric for a phenomenon, then it is outside the realm of scientific inquiry. The problem is Moderns tend to believe, falsely, that science applies to everything. As more of a pure mathematician, it is perhaps easier for me to see this error in judgement directly.

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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 am

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:05 pm
The problem is Moderns tend to believe, falsely, that science applies to everything. As more of a pure mathematician, it is perhaps easier for me to see this error in judgement directly.
Aren't you, with this statement, implying that science (as we know it) is NOT the best key to understanding everything ? :)

I always saw (earthly) science as a first step along the way towards really knowing our universe (in essence, at least), which is though too self-referential to evolve into a wholly successful analysis instrument.
The "other" science I witnessed, the science of spirit, allows you to define a useful metric for phenomena currently regarded as non-quantifiable.
Which leads me to think that anyone who is really devoted to knowledge should "give it a try"...

It's really all about three steps:
1 - Starting to think as if the universe were INSIDE us and not AROUND us.
2 - Defining the coordinates of a point in that universe by exploring it. That point is a piece of truth. Objective truth.
3 - A signal will arise in what we call "reality". Finding it is equivalent and leads to gaining concrete evidence of that objective truth. In order to find it we have to: map - even incompletely - the universe we explored, map - even incompletely - reality as we know it, and then find the coordinates of the signal that arose in reality with the help of the coordinates we defined for the above-mentioned point.

It's an attempt of definition, guys, I'm not as good as Lada at this and it could probably be better explained, but I think you can all get the point: two worlds, seeing one as a projection of the other, learning how to discover one through the other, because nothing can be discovered by looking at it from... IT! *gives himself up* :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:00 pm

Mildir wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 am
Aren't you, with this statement, implying that science (as we know it) is NOT the best key to understanding everything ? :)
Well 'everthing' is what we'd call in math the "set of all sets", but since science only works with what you can measure, then by definition it doesn't work with 'everything'. It isn't of any use in determining which Paris fashion should be the fad this this year for example. Although you could use science (economics and statistics) to determine what the infusion of money into local economies that supplied raw materials for the suits and dresses did.
The "other" science I witnessed, the science of spirit, allows you to define a useful metric for phenomena currently regarded as non-quantifiable.

[...]

In order to find it we have to: map - even incompletely - the universe we explored, map - even incompletely - reality as we know it, and then find the coordinates of the signal that arose in reality with the help of the coordinates we defined for the above-mentioned point.
I'd need to see an example of that technique. Otherwise, although I can certainly understand your words, I can't attach them to anything.

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