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The Odes of the Airs

This forum is meant as a place for Mildir to write about his experiences and insights
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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Thu May 21, 2020 7:58 am

Wow this is very interesting. I stopped at the names of the Valar and Maiar but I think establishing or rather perceiving the grammar would be the next logical step. I haven’t looked at this in a while so there may be some errors or something I missed.
Saying it out loud what you have sounds right to me in terms of the declensions.

I will take a closer look because I don’t remember all the grammar terms. 😕
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Sat May 23, 2020 9:50 am

I found someone else who is attempting to reconstruct the Valarin forms of the names of the Maiar. I haven’t seen this one before.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/brightonce ... -names/amp

Names of the Valar

https://valarinventures.tumblr.com/post ... ted_post=1

Plus the Ring Verse and Namarie translates into Valarin.

https://valarinventures.tumblr.com/post ... in-valarin
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Mildir » Mon May 25, 2020 7:04 am

Lomelindo wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:50 am
Plus the Ring Verse and Namarie translates into Valarin.

https://valarinventures.tumblr.com/post ... in-valarin
This was the most interesting part (he also translated Namárië), I seem to understand that the declension, in his Valarin, is based on particles very similar to those appearing in "mine".
An important difference is the definite article: not present in the Valarin of my memories, while in his version it's postponed to the noun (could it be -t ? Like in Westron ?).
One thing I don't like is that he seems to take every single principle of the language from another language of Middle-earth, mostly from those born after Valarin, which doesn't seem very plausible... (not even if one assumes that the Westron article originates from the Valarin article in some way, because it really doesn't seem plausible: the languages of men were born in the East and would be influenced by Elvish idioms only afterwards. But those Elvish idioms had hardly been influenced by Valarin. Which is stated also in the Silm.: the Valar advised the Eldar to create their own words instead of deriving them from Valarin)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:00 pm

Adunaic precursor of Westron I think was exposed to some Valarin through Eönwë who taught them. Originally the language of the early Men was Taliska which took influence from Khuzdul, Avarin, and Sindarin and later Quenya.
I mean the possibility of Valarin influences is not stated outright in the Legendarium that I can remember but it certainly is likely.
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:02 pm

Also there are some cases of Valarin words being adapted to Quenya.
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:10 pm

Michael Drout seems to suggest similarly.
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“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:26 pm

Originally my intention is not to reconstruct Valarin so that I could speak it or write poems but for more of a “shamanic” so I could find their names and chant them in the manner of the Hindu mantra in order to work with the Valar because I really don’t like communicating via Osanwe.
The Norse runes also employ a similar chanting called GALDR which combined chanting with singing. The Norse Sami people have something similar called JOIK which almost sounds like Native American singing.

GALDR was used in conjunction with Runes, which is how I’ll be exploring the energies and associations.
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue May 26, 2020 6:18 am

Mildir wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm
[...] I agree with those who see them as UPG (which is what this forum is about, mostly: verifiable gnosis is rare).
Actually, the forum is dedicated to research on and inspiration from the Legendarium as a whole. But it's often true that personal gnosis is unverifiable; I wrote a short article on that in the form of a reply in another topic here: [link].

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Mildir » Tue May 26, 2020 3:47 pm

Lomelindo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:00 pm
the possibility of Valarin influences is not stated outright in the Legendarium that I can remember but it certainly is likely.
I honestly doubt it.
If you go to this page of the T. Gateway encyclopedia, you can read this:
Valarin was extremely alien to the ears of the Elves, sometimes to the point of genuine displeasure,[2] and very few of them ever learned the language, only adopting some of the Valarin words into their own Quenya. The Valar learnt Quenya instead
Lomelindo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:00 pm
Adunaic precursor of Westron I think was exposed to some Valarin through Eönwë who taught them.
Not impossible, but why teach Men a language that he didn't even use to converse with Elves ?
Originally the language of the early Men was Taliska which took influence from Khuzdul, Avarin, and Sindarin and later Quenya.


The Dwarves never taught their tongue to strangers (with the notable exception of Maeglin), only few words and phrases must have leaked out.
And theirs was the only idiom which might extensively have been influenced by Valarin.
The Avari and the Sindar must have heard some sentences at most, but I can't imagine them taking pieces of Valarin grammar and putting them into theirs.

Anyway, every NeoValarin is based on a different assumption, it's normal, I'm just saying I would never assume that elements of less old languages are also found in its grammar (I was specifically talking about the grammar, it is something that cannot be influenced by brief meetings between a Vala and a Mortal).
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: The Odes of the Airs

Post by Lomelindo » Thu May 28, 2020 1:25 pm

I think it is not coincidence that Adunaic has three consonant roots just like Khuzdul and incidentally Semitic as well. So I think it’s more than just a random loan word here and there. And I also think and I think from his early writings he intended Khuzdul to be based on Valarin. So therefore I think it’s more plausible that Eönwë did assist them with the formulation of their language which was only fully developed in Numenor. Elves would not have bothered to teach them these things because I think they would find Adunaic just as unpleasant as Valarin.

But anyway now we have three lists of possible reconstructions of the names of the Valar and Maiar we can all (whoever would like to participate) sit down and meditate with them by intoning the names like a mantra and compare our experiences. I haven’t done this yet but I will in the near future hopefully.
“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” - Haldir

“We’re not in decent places.” Gollum

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