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On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:30 pm
by Mildir
So, in this thread I and Lomelindo started to discuss the origin of the name Tíw / Tý(r) / Ziu (the name of the Germanic god of war).
Here's what I wrote:
Mildir wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:47 pm
Lomelindo wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:44 pm
Tyr/Tiw comes from Proto-Germanic Tiwaz
Maybe. :)
We should remind readers that unlike Tíw and Ziu, Tīwaz is a reconstructed name.
which itself comes from Proto Indo European Dyeus
Again: maybe.
By searching on the Web anyone can come across, for example, this article of Wikipedia, that says:
Týr [...] is a god in Germanic mythology. Stemming from the Proto-Germanic deity *Tīwaz and ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European deity *Dyeus, little information about the god survives beyond Old Norse sources.
The statement is put as if this information were verified, but in fact it's not: it's what most linguists hold to be probable, based on the evidence that was given to them, which - in this particular case - is little.
There is not a single inscription reading *Tīwaz and, more importantly, no attestation of the fact that Tíw and the archetype figure of the Sky Father are the same thing.
As I see it, the matter is controversial and should not be taken for granted: it could be that that Dyḗus and Tíw are the same thing, after all some sources show Tíw as Odin's son and Odin is the Father of Gods.
On the other hand Tíw has been clearly indicated as a warlord, a god of war, by Germanic people, comparable to Roman Mars, and as the article says...
Now Mars has always been worshipped by the Goths with cruel rites, and captives were slain as his victims. They thought that he who was lord of war ought to be appeased by the shedding of human blood. To him they devoted the first share of the spoil, and in his honor arms stripped from the foe were suspended from trees. And they had more than all races a deep spirit of religion, since the worship of this god seemed to be really bestowed upon their ancestor.
This doesn't fit well with a benevolent Sky Father or a personification of daylight, which is what Dyḗus is considered.
By all this I mean: the info you mention here is important, but it would be wrong to take it as proof that no other evolutionary line underlies the name.
(I would also add that cases have been discovered, where a double evolutionary line underlies a term, I'll mention some if needed).

If we want to discuss more these aspects of the matter (which was originally establishing in how many years a name could have become another), I think we'd best do it in a separate topic, as more than about years and ages this is about how likely and reliable an etymology is.

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:44 pm
by Lomelindo
Ok then. I have been searching academic journals for studies and stuff.

I will share anything interesting I find.

I think there are a few other interpretations and theories.

You know I think all linguists especially Tolkien were in the process of reconstruction, but most scholars do make educated guesses based on the information.

I personally love to learn about such perspectives but I always remind myself that this is a story that we are telling about the ancient past and that new evidence may change how we see the story or we might find we were completely wrong.

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:33 pm
by Lomelindo
S. noun. letter

Just something interesting. Not saying it is related to Tiw/Tyr though.

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:13 am
by Lomelindo
Also we must consider the rune Tyr/Tiwaz since that may give us some clues.

Interestingly the same forth appears in the Cirth/Tengwar as aligning with NUMEN (West) with the sound 'n'.

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:19 am
by Lomelindo
Tom Shippey says in his essay "Tolkien and the Appeal of the Pagan: Edda and Kaleva":

Snorri runs through a list of the Norse pantheon, he says of Tyr, "he is one-handed and he is not considered a promoter of settlements between people'' (Faulkes
1987: 25). This latter statement means that he is the god of war, and stirs up fighting. But it is characteristic of all Norse tradition to play down demonstrations of emotion, and to speak in terms of opposites. The trait remains perfectly familiar: in some English social groups, including Tolkien's, 'not bad at all' is about the highest compliment that can be paid. Tolkien certainly aimed at similar effects from the start of his writing career. See, for instance, his description of the Valar in The Silmarillion, which clearly imitates Snorri's account of the pantheon, and of Tulkas in particular, the Vala equivalent ofTyr: "He has little heed for the past and the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor" (Silm, 29).

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:23 am
by Lomelindo
In another essay by Shippey "Tolkicn and Iceland: The Philology of Envy"

"One in particular, the warlike Vala Tulkas, seems to be a rewriting of Snorri's account of the god Tyr (compare Silm, 28-9 with Faulkes 1987: 25), while his name looks very like the hypothetical Primitive Germanic form of the Norse word tulkr, 'spokesman,' which came to mean 'warrior' in Middle English: so, you see, the word is English, 'tolke,' but derived from Norse, tulkr, but both are derived from the same root *tulkas, so Norse and English are really the same thing."

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:26 am
by Mildir
Lomelindo wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:44 pm
but most scholars do make educated guesses based on the information.
What is difficult to understand for readers who are not deeply into linguistics is that everything related to Proto-Indo-European is highly hypothetical, probably more than any other notion divulged by linguists.

It's like trying to reconstruct what a dinosaur's colouration exactly looked like.
The form Dyḗus (for "God") is in itself a big guess, but saying that a vaguely similar term, appeared thousands of years later, comes from it is even bigger.
In this case we also have noteworthy cultural elements that clash with the hypothesis of a connection.
So my guess is that the two things might be related, but the only reason why scholars think they are is that there isn't a better hypothesis for the origin of the name.

It's a bit like when we thought that an atom was only made of protons and electrons (there was even a period in which scientists thought of protons, normal electrons and nuclear electrons).

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 am
by Lomelindo
One thing I'm noticing is that in Norse myth Tyr is not associated with the concepts of "bright" or "shining" which would more align with Balder.

In your analogy about dinosaurs, we now know that many of them had feathers and are more related to birds than reptiles.

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:50 pm
by Lomelindo
So another view in the PIE circles (JP Mallory) is that Tiw actually comes from PIE root deiwos meaning 'god' not directly from dyaus

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:51 pm
by Mildir
Lomelindo wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:50 pm
So another view in the PIE circles (JP Mallory) is that Tiw actually comes from PIE root deiwos meaning 'god' not directly from dyaus
Interesting, it shows how many possibilities there are :)
(Contributing little due to work schedule, will write more asap)

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm
by Lomelindo
An excerpt from "Odin's Wife" by William P. Reaves

The Definitive Investigation of Frigg
More often than not, scholars have been inclined to see Odin as a usurper, who came late to the throne. It has often been argued that Odin is a late import into Scandinavia from continental Germany, owing to his adoption and promotion by an emerging political elite centered around regional kings supported by their military retinues, between the fourth and eighth centuries. Since at least the mid-twentieth century, Odin has almost universally been interpreted as a lesser local god who must have rose to the top of the ranks sometime between the seventh and tenth centuries, when his name first began to appear in literary sources. In 1964, E.O.G. Turville-Petre observed, “While there is no compelling evidence that the cult of Óðinn was practiced widely in the west before the Viking Age, there are reasons to believe that it spread and developed during that age.” Citing the few indications of cult veneration for Odin in Iceland, the lack of place-names, and the relatively few myths concerning him, Rudolf Simek (1984) wrote: “Since there can be no doubt that Odin was the god of poetry, …the skalds of heathen times, not surprisingly show a particular inclination in favour of the god of their own craft.” Richard North (1999) concurs, stating that “the uncritical acceptance of Óðinn’s pre-eminence in Gylfaginning as typical of his status in the pagan period often obscures rather than clarifies the many problems of Germanic mythology,” adding: “It is unlikely that Woden, a god of magic and warfare, was regarded as the ‘All-father’ in heathen times.” In agreement with this view, Thomas DuBois (1999) infers:
“Tellingly Óðinn’s apparent rise to power in the Scandinavian pantheon finds reflection of him as a crafty, usurping, duplicitous deity, lacking in many accounts the unambiguously admirable qualities of Þórr.”
Demonstrably, linguistic arguments concerning the name of the Indo-European Sky-Father, reconstructed as *Dyeus Pater, primarily inform this view since he is typically identified as *Tiwaz (later Týr) and not Odin in the Germanic sphere. However, when one considers the continuity of Odin, and earlier Mercury, in the historic record and recognizes Odin’s character and attributes in those of the proposed Indo-European Sky-Father, there is little reason to doubt that Odin is a direct heir to the mantle of *Dyeus Pater. Like his Greco-Roman counterparts, Odin is one of three brothers, who are the third generation from Chaos. Like them, he surveys the world from his heavenly throne, wields a casting weapon, carries on affairs, and is associated with a goddess representing the earth. Even if their names are not parallel, their attributes are.
Once linguists identified *Dyeus Pater as the proper name of the Indo-European Sky-Father at the beginning of the nineteenth century, this honor has uniformly been bestowed on Odin’s son Tyr, the one-handed god known from the Eddas, but only because his name corresponds etymologically to that of the Greek Zeus and the Indic Dyaus. Therefore the evidence for this identification is primarily linguistic, and does not account for a potential change in name. That alone should give us pause.
In the other branches, these names are commonly coupled with the title Pater, Father, except in the Germanic branch, where Tyr is not only never characterized as a father, but is cuckolded by Loki, who declares that Tyr never got “rag nor penny” in compensation for his wife bearing Loki a son (Lokasenna 40). Instead, both suffixes regularly appear in epithets of Odin. He is the “All-father” (Alföðr) and “Father of men” (Aldaföðr) as well as the biological father of prominent gods such as Thor, Baldur, Vidar and Vali. In addition, Odin is known as Farma-týr (Cargo god), Fimbul-týr (Great god), Gauta-týr (God of the Geats), Geir-týr (Spear god), Hanga-týr (Hanging god), Her-týr (God of hosts), Hropta-týr (Invoking god), Reiðar-týr (God of riders), and Rúna-týr (Rune god). In fact, the suffix týr is attached to Odin’s names more often than any other god. According to the conventions of comparative mythology, Odin should rightly be considered the Germanic analog to the old Indo-European Sky-Father. Like Zeus and Jupiter to the south, he serves as ruler and father to the primary gods, seated on his heavenly throne Hlidskjalf, looking out over the world. Only Odin’s proper name, not being a cognate of the reconstructed compound *Dyeus Pater, has prevented scholars from reaching this rather obvious conclusion.
There is a near consensus that Odin’s name derives from a root akin to Old Norse óðr, German wut, Anglo-Saxon wōþ, words meaning “high mental excitement, ecstasy,” which calls attention to a common link between his votaries: poets, warriors and sorcerers, whose professional success depended, at least in part, on accessing supernatural power and inducing states of inspiration or frenzy. Adam of Bremen says, Wodan, id est furor, “Odin, that is the Furious.” More generally, the name Odin (*Wodanaz) comes from a root meaning “raging, frenzied, spirited,” an appropriate designation for a sky-god. So instead of assuming Odin came late to the throne, usurping an earlier Germanic predecessor, we might just as readily conclude that somewhere along the line that one of the Sky-Father’s epithets came to stand in for his proper name —that *Dyeus Pater became *Wodanaz— perhaps due to a taboo of naming the god directly. Martin L. West explains:
“More than one factor contributed to the replacement of names. A god’s primary name might be avoided for taboo reasons. It might be displaced by familiar epithets or titles, rather as the Christian deity is no longer known as Yahweh or Jehovah, but is mostly just called God, or alternatively the Almighty, the Heavenly Father, the Lord, and so forth.
…Gods’ names are not invented arbitrarily, like those of aliens in science fiction. Originally, they have a meaning, they express some concept, and sometimes this is still apparent or discoverable.”
Since the early nineteenth century, scholars have identified *Dyeus Pater with an unattested Germanic “war-god” theoretically called *Tiw or *Tiwaz. The name is based on the Anglo-Saxon transliteration of the names of the weekdays, where Tiwesdaeg (Tuesday) corresponds to dies Martis (Mars’ day), making the god *Tiw an analogue of Mars, the Roman god of war. It should be mentioned that up until that time, the name Tuesday was generally believed to derive from the Germanic god Tuisco, described by Tacitus in Germania ch. 2 as “an earth-born” deity, whose son Mannus was the source and founder of the Germanic people. Popularized by British publisher Richard Verstegan in his Restitution of Decayed Intelligence in Antiquities (1605), this theory was widely repeated in popular works until the early 1900s. Verstegan, who had artistic precedents for all seven of the so-called Saxon gods, based his image of Tuysco on Peter Flötner’s design for Tusico, the eponymous father of the Teutonic race, in silver relief minted between 1537-1543. In 1763, the French scholar Paul Henri Mallet, an early translator of Snorri’s Edda, first proposed that the English Tuesday and the Allemand (OHG) Dingstag actually derived from Tyr, a son of Odin in Snorri’s Edda, and that “this proved that Tyr answered to Mars,” Dies Martis, in Latin.
… Even though Tyr is often assumed to have once been a more powerful deity and ruler of the Germanic gods, he remains a relatively obscure figure in the Germanic sources. He first appears as a distinct deity in the Eddas. Tyr sits at the table in Lokasenna, rising to defend Freyr from Loki’s abuse, and in Hymiskviða, he accompanies Thor to the giant Hymir’s home to fetch a brewing kettle. Although Snorri calls him the son of Odin, the Hymiskviða-poet calls him the son of Hymir, perhaps due to the Germanic tradition of fosterage. In Gylfaginning, Tyr is the only god brave enough to feed the young wolf-pup Fenrir, and the only one daring enough to place a hand in the monster’s mouth when it came time to bind him. For this act of valor, he lost his sword-hand. In the end, his sacrifice comes to naught, when the wolf breaks free and swallows Odin whole.
At its very core, the identification of Tyr with the ancient sky-god is based on nothing more than a comparison of the name Tyr with the names of other Indo-European Sky-Fathers. While it is true that the name Tyr is cognate with *Dyeus, the first part of *Dyeus Pater, the god Tyr is not. He is never referred to as father and is not associated with the sky in the Germanic record. He possesses none of the attributes characteristic of the Indo-European Sky-Father. If Tyr ever held such a position, no record of it remains. His name simply means “god” in Old Norse and is closely connected with other words meaning “god” and “divinity” in other Germanic and Indo-European languages. The singular form -týr frequently occurs as a suffix in epithets of Odin, as shown above, and the plural form tívar applies to the gods collectively. All else is supposition based on assumption. As Rudolf Simek illustrates:
“The Old Scandinavian name for the Germanic god of the sky, war, and council *Tiwaz (OHG Ziu) who is the only Germanic god who was already important in Indo-European times: Old Indic Dyaus, Greek Zeus, Latin Jupiter …ON tívar, (plural to Týr) are all closely related etymologically to each other. …Despite his early importance, Tyr is a relatively unimportant god in the ON mythology of the Eddas. …He must have played a more important role at some stage as is clear from the plural of his name tívar meaning ‘gods’ as well as the fact that in skaldic poetry his name could be used as the basic word in kennings for other gods, especially for Odin; this proves that his name originally, but still in Viking times, could simply mean ‘god.’”
The apparent etymological identity between Týr and *Dyeus and the speculations that followed led early scholars like H.M. Chadwick, who attributed the theory to Henry Petersen (1876), to hypothesize that a local war-god named Odin had usurped Tyr’s functions sometime before the sixth century when the name Odin first appeared, and that his cult became pan-Germanic by the Viking Age. Not only is such a rapid spread of a cult extremely unlikely, there is no clear basis for such a major shift in the Germanic religion in the prehistoric past in either the available literary or archaeological records. For this reason, some scholars have begun to back away from this theory. When discussing the one-handed god, Andy Orchard (1997) merely states:
“Týr’s very name, of course, is apt to sow confusion being derived from Germanic *Tiwaz as a simple noun for ‘god’ and related to both Greek Zeus and Latin deus. The singular form of his name often occurs in poetic periphrases or kennings for the other Æsir, while the plural form, tívar, simply means ‘gods.’”
Avoiding the reconstructed form *Tiwaz altogether, John Lindow (2001) agrees, stating “Etymologically, Týr’s name is related to an Indo-European root meaning ‘deity’ (e.g. compare the Latin deus).” More recently, scholars such as Martin L. West have taken a more circumspect approach, suggesting instead that Odin may have “stepped into an older scheme in which the Sky became father of the gods and men in marriage to the Earth.” Ursula Dronke concurs, noting that Odin or his Indo-European ancestor is best interpreted as a solar deity, who, like the sun, had only one eye that sees everything. He travels and visits the homes of men like the sun, and as the originator of life, “like the sun, he is Alföðr.” His fate, like that of the sun, is to be swallowed by a wolf. Dronke concludes that “this vast background of archaic fragments” helps to explain Odin’s place as the foremost god in Germanic mythology, a role he retained beyond the end of the heathen age and into the modern era. Martin L. West writes:
“A Germanic reflex of the god *Dyeus is not readily identified, since (as already noted) the Nordic Tyr and his continental cognates seem to derive their names from the generic title *deiwós and do not resemble *Dyeus in character. It is possible, however, that Wodan-Odin (proto-Germanic *Woðanaz) while not being a direct continuation of *Dyeus took over certain of his features. In Lombardic myth as retailed by Paulus Diaconus (1.8), Wodan was imagined habitually surveying the earth from his window, beginning at sunrise. This corresponds to the position of Odin in the Eddas. He has the highest seat among the gods, and from it surveys all the worlds, rather as Zeus, sitting on the peak of Mt. Ida, can survey not only the Troad, but Thrace and Scythia too. Odin also has the distinctive title of father. In the poems he is called Alföðr, ‘All-father.”
Why Odin cannot be “a direct continuation of *Dyeus is left unsaid. The weight of evidence certainly converges on that conclusion. As the first god called by a Germanic name recognizable in later eddic and skaldic poetry, Odin’s first appearance in literary sources need not correspond to his actual rise to the head of the pantheon. Because he has clear analogs in related Indo-European mythologies, it is likely Odin was venerated among the Germanic people under other titles before being recorded in historical sources. Odin alone, and not Tyr, exhibits the essential character of the Indo-European Sky-Father in all but name. This is not to suggest that his character remained static from the Indo-European era to the rise of Christianity. Ethnic idols, unlike their revealed counterparts bound by written scriptures, tend to change as the culture of their adherents changes. Therefore, it seems certain that Odin’s character evolved over time adapting to the changing cultural realities of his votaries. As Scandinavians developed from a decentralized tribal society into smaller and larger kingdoms, and eventually into nation states, this would naturally be reflected in their mythology. Once the Germanic tongue differentiated from its Proto-Indo-European stem and began to develop independently, the Germanic gods also began to evolve independently, distinguishing themselves from their forebears.
In Northern Europe, *Dyeus Pater, a god of the bright sky with solar associations, appears to have retained his primary characteristics while becoming the one-eyed Odin. His single eye accentuated his role as a sky-god, serving double duty symbolically. Odin’s good eye can be interpreted as the sun, the “one eye in the sky”, while his missing eye, hidden in Mimir’s well, can be seen as the sun’s reflection in water. When the sun and moon appear in the sky together, the moon takes on the appearance of a dead or clouded eye, compared to the glowing orb of the sun. The position of Odin’s throne in Asgard at the apex of heaven, peering down on Creation, marks high noon, just as the geographical sites of the two other two divine tribes, Alfheim in the east and Vanaheim in the west, mark sunrise and sunset. His role as progenitor was emphasized, reflected in such names as Alföðr, “All-Father”; Aldaföðr, “Father of men”; Galdraföðr, "Father of galdur (Old English gealdor, spell-songs)"; Herföðr and Herjaföðr, “Father of Hosts”; Jölfuðr or Jölföðr, “Yule Father”; and Sigföðr, “Father of Victory.”
from Chapter 5: "Odin, the All-Father" of the book
"Odin's Wife: Mother Earth in Germanic Mythology" (2018)

Re: On the origin of the name of Týr

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:19 pm
by Lomelindo
On Thu/Tu from the book "History of the Hobbit":

While Moria represents a new element in the legendarium, the Necromancer is an old acquaintance. The character goes back, in one form or another, all the way to the end of the ‘Lost Tales’ period. In the fragments and outlines that make up all we have of ‘Gilfanon’s Tale’ – one of the truly ‘lost’ tales – appears ‘a certain fay’ (i.e., one of the Maiar) named Tû the wizard, ‘for he was more skilled in magics than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of
Valinor’. According to one account, Tû or Túvo learned ‘much black magic’ from Melko in the Halls of Mandos during the latter’s imprisonment there and ‘entered the world’ after Melko’s destruction of the Two Trees and escape from Valinor, whereupon Tû ‘set up a wizard kingship in the middle lands’ (i.e., the center of the world, midway between East and West). Ruler of the Dark Elves of Palisor, the ‘twilight people’, the wizard-king dwelt underground in endless caverns beside a dark lake.

For all his sinister associations, this ‘eldest of wizards’ is not evil. In fact, he is god-fearing in the old-fashioned sense of the word; when one of his elves discovers the first Men sleeping in the Vale of Murmenalda, Tû forbids his people to waken them before their time, ‘being frightened of the wrath of Ilúvatar’. Furthermore, perhaps from his earlier association with Mandos (the prophet of the Valar), he is aware that the humans are ‘waiting for the light’ and will not
awaken until the first rising of the Sun. When one of his folk disobeys these orders, Tû takes the new Children of Ilúvatar under his protection and seeks to protect Men and Elves alike from ‘evil fays’.

At this point a second, similar, figure appears upon the scene, variously called Fúkil or Fankil or Fangli, the servant (or, according to one version, the child) of Melko. Like Tû, Fangli is a fay or Maia, one of several who ‘escaped into the world’ at the time of Melko’s chaining. Coming among the newly awakened humans, Fangli corrupts them, playing serpent in this Eden, and stirs up strife among the first Men. The result is the Battle of Palisor, where the Men corrupted by Fangli with their Dwarf and Goblin allies attack the twilight elves and the few Men still loyal to them. The outlines differ on whether Fangli’s host or Tû’s folk gain the victory, but most agree that ‘the Men corrupted by Fangli fled away and became wild and savage tribes, worshipping Fangli and Melko’; some even specify that these Men become the ‘dark and savage’ peoples of the far south and east – the first hint of the Southron and Easterling, the Men of Harad and Khand and Rhûn (BLT I.232–7).

Neither Tû nor Fangli is mentioned again after the ‘Lost Tales’ were abandoned, but a new figure of great importance appears shortly afterwards who combines elements from both: Thû the necromancer. Also variously known as Gorthû and Sauron, this evil magician makes his first appearance in ‘The Lay of Leithian’13 and thereafter plays a major role in all of Tolkien’s Middle-earth works:

Men called him Thû, and as a god
in after days beneath his rod
bewildered bowed to him, and made
his ghastly temples in the shade.
Not yet by Men enthralled adored,
now was he Morgoth’s mightiest lord,
Master of Wolves, whose shivering howl
for ever echoed in the hills, and foul
enchantments and dark sigaldry
did weave and wield. In glamoury
that necromancer held his hosts
of phantoms and of wandering ghosts,
of misbegotten or spell-wronged
monsters that about him thronged,
working his bidding dark and vile:
the werewolves of the Wizard’s Isle.
—Lay of Leithian, Canto VII, lines
HME III.227–8.

While not yet as powerful as he later becomes, we have here the character of Sauron the Great fully developed: his undead servants (cf. The Lord of the Rings’ Nazgûl); his desire for worship (prefigured in the Fangli story) and the dark temples which come to play so great a role in all versions of the Numenor story; his skill at sorcery, especially necromancy and mind-controlling enchantments. Elsewhere in the Lay there is even mention of his ‘sleepless eyes of
flame’ (line 2055), with which he keeps endless watch on all comings and goings on the borders of Morgoth’s land. The fate of those thrown into his dungeons is vividly described:

Thus came they unhappy into woe,
to dungeons no hope nor glimmer know,
where chained in chains that eat the flesh
and woven in webs of strangling mesh
they lay forgotten, in despair.
—Canto VII, lines 2210–2214;
HME III.231.