ginnie wrote:No, I don't know if it's possible to relate one world to another, they Appear to only be able to connect when speaking with those who have undergone a like experience, and those communications are often frail and wispy.
I don't know either. Dave has more outspoken ideas about this (as he explains in this topic as well).
It's also that this relating the imaginal to the factual world
simply does not interest me as much as the imaginal experience by itself (and the creative products resulting from those experiences).
I'm not sure about the frail and wispy
though. Oftentimes I find the withered leaves
that once were fairy gold
quite impressive and profound, even if they pale indeed compared to the original experience.
ginnie wrote:What I was talking about was the framework of the experience, in this case, the story, the mythology, the symbolism is the framework. Looking at this framework is of great interest to some and holds little to no interest for others.
Ah, then you were indeed using that word in a different sense. Maybe it's because I am so thoroughly fed up with the Java Enterprise Software Frameworks
in my job.
I understood it as an intellectual / conceptual framework of ideas that would put the whole imaginal experience somewhere in a philosophical, or psychological, or religious or even scientific context, possibly also providing an explanation for how it might work.
That what you call framework
, I have always thought about as something like creative or report-like expression of the experience
, or maybe, carrier
ginnie wrote:From my experience concepts need to be abandoned, the stranglehold of conceptions make the experience a no-go. .
That is precisely what I meant all the time.
ginnie wrote:However, when we wish to communicate these experiences then some framework is required.
Sure, but I just would not think of that as a framework
, because that implies that there is a frame within which everything must necessarily stay.
Of course paint and music and drama
all have their limits, but those limits feel more .. flexible, maybe?
ginnie wrote:This is so beautifully stated. I'm of two minds on this tho. No amount of intellectual information will unlock these doors, one must experience and only then speak of a thing otherwise it's all speculation. Yet, perhaps studying the frameworks allows some to approach these experiences in a, for them, safe way and provides the necessary energy to persist until they cross the threshold. You are completely right tho, standing in the vestibule and speaking of that which lies beyond is not the same as entering.
In the above, do you mean frameworks
as in "the experience, in this case, the story, the mythology, the symbolism"
or as how I understood it?
ginnie wrote:I think I understand, and I feel this too, because when I have felt like this I don't want to contaminate my message with undue influence because that leads to more conceptualization, and it also seems to threaten the freeness through must be present in order to look where one points.
ginnie wrote:I don't know how else to express this. Influence may have the touch of violence in it?
I don't understand the bit about violence
Or maybe you refer to what I said about that I don't like to write like this
? That's not because it feels violent ... it feels unpleasant because I don't like discussions in the sense of "arguing"
, which are almost often pointless and serve no purpose other than to deepen the gap that there was before the discussion took off.
In this case it felt as if I was repeatedly not understood (which was a bit frustrating), coupled with the sense that it was nonetheless important to keep trying (because I truly feel that it is an important point). This sort of forced me to do something that I seriously dislike, ie., to keep on trying to make this point clear. And because I really like Sarek a lot in a personal way I started to feel like I was nagging in a most hair-pulling way.
It was maybe a kind of cognitive dissonance. Like having been forced to shout all day to a class full of people with very sensitive ears
ginnie wrote:Tho, what I am hearing is more a plea, maybe, "no, I want to journey with, my soul is lonely..join me"?
I won't deny that I have often felt like that, indeed.
It seems to come with doing this sort of thing. So yeah, that would indeed be great.
(although I never felt alone in the Imaginal world, that's funny. Quite the contrary: it feels like home.)