Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post Reply
drcyd
Mariner (New poster)
Mariner (<i>New poster</i>)
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 5:52 pm

Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by drcyd » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:28 pm

I've just posted a new Gnostic Gospel article over on my Gnostic blog. It's called "If All Are Redeemed, Why Not Be Sinful?"

Here are the first few paragraphs--please continue the article at the blog.

One of the big heresies of gnosticism is that all second order powers are redeemed by Christ and all will someday return to the paradise of the Fullness. Yay! Everyone is going to heaven! No one is going to hell, not even the fallen angels. What joy!

This seems to fly in the face of Christian orthodoxy that promotes the idea that only those humans who confess a belief in Jesus as the Christ will make it into heaven, and those who don't believe in Jesus will go to an eternal damnation of suffering in hell. Conventional Christianity states that Jesus came to save humanity, but only those who acknowledge Jesus as the only Son of God and invite him into their hearts will be saved. This is the basis for all evangelism and all churches that follow the Nicene Creed--which is to say, all Christian churches, whether Catholic or Protestant. This is why Christians are so keen on saving souls--they do not want you to suffer for eternity in hell.

The Gnostic Church begs to differ with that common interpretation of Christ's mission. According to the books of the Nag Hammadi library, all of creation will be redeemed and returned to the Fullness and the Father's home in heaven. All of creation. Everyone and everything will be made clean and pure and holy by the end. To borrow a popular expression: "It will all be good in the end; if it's not all good yet, then it's not yet the end."

Gnosis refers to the ability to use reason and logic to arrive at spiritual truth. So, let's think together about this idea of Christ and redemption and who does or does not go to heaven.

First, if Christ's redemption were a matter of your belief, then Christ's mission of salvation would be limited to what you believe. In other words, you would be the one holding the power of salvation, not Christ. Does that make any sense to you? Are you the one who redeems, or is Christ? Do you think Christ can't redeem the unwilling? Can you see how making your beliefs central to redemption actually limits the power of Christ? Can you see how that makes sinful humans more powerful than the mission of Christ's redemption? Limiting Christ to your belief, it seems to me, is the greater heresy than simply trusting Christ to accomplish the mission. It is Christ's job to redeem humanity, not yours.

Second, according to gnostic texts, all creatures, great and small, will be redeemed. This means that all creatures are going to heaven. My dog has never professed a belief in Jesus as the Christ, yet my dog is going to heaven. The fishes in the water, the birds in the air, the insects, the forest animals, all "second order powers" are redeemed by Christ. It is the job of the Christ to redeem creation, irrespective of creation's ability to confess that fact. Do you think that only good dogs go to heaven? Or nice fishes? Maybe only herbivores? Perhaps only parrots who can say "Jesus saves"?

please finish the article at https://newgnosticgospel.blogspot.com/2 ... inful.html

cyd ropp

User avatar
Mildir
Able Seaman (Veteran poster)
Able Seaman (<i>Veteran poster</i>)
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:33 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Mildir » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:41 pm

I just read all the article.
It's beautiful to see there is still someone who enjoys making such profound reflections.

Redemption is a concept forged by men, it springs from the inability of our culture to live without the concepts of "fault" and "punishment".
I think that a being who can identify itself as the entire universe, with its countless dimensions, does not need these concepts.
It is we who need them, at least for now, so we put them into the image of God that we made for ourselves.

This is my view, based on many firsthand experiences:
Beings such as humans live in order to get to know themselves better, in order to gradually discover their purest nature.
That's all.
They can be light or they can be darkness.
In the early period of their evolution they don't know which they are: they find themselves in a grey area, neither purely white nor purely black.
But the universe - in essence - is like a torque: light and darkness dance around each other producing what we may call a "centrifugal force", which causes all beings to eventually become part of one side or of the other.
Thus in real life we see beings drawn to love, creation and light and beings drawn to hatred, destruction and dark.
Almost none of them realizes it, but they will eventually become either angels or demons.
And it's not wrong to become and to be either: it's a free choice, the discovery of what our spirit really wants.

That may lead to the question: what to do if evil beings damage good beings?
First - in my view - it's always important to keep in mind that in worlds such as ours the good beings damage the evil as well.
The two parts simply hinder each other and each other's desires, if they live in the same exact place.
The answer to this problem is not punishment or making people feel guilty: the answer is simply relocation, for both sides.
Thus, according to what I've learnt, when a being has finally found out which side it identifies with the most, it is sent either in the realm of light or in the realm of darkness.

This is what is happening to the universe, or - like I love to call it - the One (i.e. God): a process leading to the achievement of self-knowledge.
God is defining Himself through every being and thing in the universe, He is saying "Who am I here? > Answer; Who am I here? > Answer; Who am I here? > Answer (Continues)".


This is to explain why - in my view - things such as redemption and punishment don't make any sense: we created them, I hope we won't be using these notions for long.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

User avatar
Meneldur Olvarion
First Mate
First Mate
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 am
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:22 pm

Mildir wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:41 pm
This is to explain why - in my view - things such as redemption and punishment don't make any sense: we created them, I hope we won't be using these notions for long.
I certainly agree with that. A a Tyger-Therianthrope, to me those concepts never made any sense: if something attempts to 'punish' me, I'll attempt to kill/disassemble it, if it attempts to 'save' me, I'd ask it: "Save me from what, exactly? Although if you want to throw some food or money my way, I won't object."
Almost none of them realizes it, but they will eventually become either angels or demons.
I have a question about that: certain beings I've seen on my shamanic journeys are far more powerful than humans, whether they be helpful or hostile. So how could any human attain this level? For example, from my POV, most Trumpkins (Donald Trump cultists) are at least borderline evil, but they are quite weak. In fact, they're weak freaks (again, in my POV).

User avatar
Mildir
Able Seaman (Veteran poster)
Able Seaman (<i>Veteran poster</i>)
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:33 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Mildir » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:32 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:22 pm
Mildir wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:41 pm
Almost none of them realizes it, but they will eventually become either angels or demons.
I have a question about that: certain beings I've seen on my shamanic journeys are far more powerful than humans, whether they be helpful or hostile. So how could any human attain this level?
It's a complex question and I don't know if I am the right person to put it to... :D
All I know is that there is a limit to the power we can gain WITHOUT having become wholly "white" or "black": through knowledge and certainly through practice we can gain power, even far beyond the human level. There will anyway be a point in which a "choice" or "separation" is required to gain more power. Which is why both wholly angelic creatures and wholly demonic creatures are more powerful than beings still in the grey area, be they shamans or masters of specific arts or whatever.
(If you don't like the terms "angelic" and "demonic": I mean totally devoted to either light, love, creation or darkness, hatred, destruction)

(NOTE: What follows may induce you to think I'm a charlatan or a wacko. I can only say in my defense that they are all data based on personal experiences, not based on anything I saw on the internet.)

For instance, I've seen creatures more vast and powerful than those that Tolkien calls Valar: if a Christian had seen the same thing they might have talked about Cherubim. But I would later be told they were called the Ilulindenári, "the Fires of the Ilu Song". What I learnt (and still perceive as true) is that they live beyond dimensions. They are indeed creators of dimensions (or "universes" if you prefer) and if they entered a single dimension with their whole "body" they would burn everything to the ground. Simply by entering. And they are creatures of light, they don't enjoy destruction... :D
I think this demonstrates how far your power can go once you get beyond that "choice".
For example, from my POV, most Trumpkins (Donald Trump cultists) are at least borderline evil, but they are quite weak. In fact, they're weak freaks (again, in my POV).
If their spirits weren't continuously stopped and hindered by the light, by the creative impulse, that there is in this world... they would evolve! :D
Many of them are maybe destined to enter Nurumar, the Realm of Darkness (again: this comes from my experience. I perceive it as true, others may not): when they do it, they will first be torn apart by superior powers (it's how things work there) but then rebuilt and made much more powerful.
They will learn from creatures they didn't even think could exist (*) and... I guess... enjoy being really terrifying entities! :D
Which can happen, as I said, only after they realize they really love that kind of attitude.

*I'm referring to the Nurutarmar, the Pillars of the Dark. These entities are really immense and I think they are the "counterparts" of the Ilulindenári.

P.S.: You may think I completely ruined my message by adding stupid things that I could spare myself. In this case: sorry, I was just trying to discover if there can be common ground between my "normal" experience and your shamanic one. :D
Meaning that what we "find" or perceive may be similar.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

User avatar
Meneldur Olvarion
First Mate
First Mate
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 am
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:35 pm

Mildir wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:32 pm
[...] For instance, I've seen creatures more vast and powerful than those that Tolkien calls Valar: if a Christian had seen the same thing they might have talked about Cherubim. But I would later be told they were called the Ilulindenári, "the Fires of the Ilu Song". What I learnt (and still perceive as true) is that they live beyond dimensions. They are indeed creators of dimensions (or "universes" if you prefer) and if they entered a single dimension with their whole "body" they would burn everything to the ground. Simply by entering. And they are creatures of light, they don't enjoy destruction... :D
I saw one also, and it appeared very much as you describe. At least, from what I was able to perceive of it -- it wasn't the n dimensions significantly greater than 3 that held me back: The Salvia-people add and pull dimensional axes as a matter of course, so after a while you get used to it, but no: it was the sheer majesty of the being. Although wheteher that was greater than the Valar is a matter of perception, since they usually "toned themselves down" when appearing to the hominans: "But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread."
[...] Which is why both wholly angelic creatures and wholly demonic creatures are more powerful than beings still in the grey area, be they shamans or masters of specific arts or whatever.
Just to clarify my situation: when I connect to the Salvia-collective, I can access almost all of their power (if I need to) and use practically none of my own, except to hold the link open. To use an analogy: in some respects it's like being connected to a fusion reactor - most likely you'll only need a small fraction of that power, but if you do, it's available.

User avatar
Mildir
Able Seaman (Veteran poster)
Able Seaman (<i>Veteran poster</i>)
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:33 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Mildir » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:29 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:35 pm
I saw one also,
Wow! That's great to hear! :o
I have a question: did you happen to feel pervaded by a "music"?
Because that's how I felt when I saw the entity just for a few seconds: I was completely "run through" by a sort of majestic music, which made me feel ecstatic, euphoric.
It seemed to radiate from the entity itself, akin to light radiating from a sun...
Just to clarify my situation: when I connect to the Salvia-collective, I can access almost all of their power (if I need to) and use practically none of my own, except to hold the link open. To use an analogy: in some respects it's like being connected to a fusion reactor - most likely you'll only need a small fraction of that power, but if you do, it's available.
Very interesting, and the question it begs will perhaps seem trivial, but: doesn't a being have to be very powerful itself in order to channel much energy/many resources?
Or are you telling that even a scared child might join the Salvia Collective and use its power to do something massive?
Anyway, I'll read more about the Salvia shamans, I've not yet "figured" them well.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

User avatar
Meneldur Olvarion
First Mate
First Mate
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 am
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:59 pm

Mildir wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I have a question: did you happen to feel pervaded by a "music"?
Because that's how I felt when I saw the entity just for a few seconds: I was completely "run through" by a sort of majestic music, which made me feel ecstatic, euphoric.
It seemed to radiate from the entity itself, akin to light radiating from a sun...
Not on that occasion, but I've had had happen in other shamanic journeys. The occasion wherein I saw and interacted with this entity was unusual. I could perhaps send you the details (they are somewhere in my gmail archives from about 2010) but you'd have to promise to keep them private and not share them on this board or any other.
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:35 pm
Just to clarify my situation: when I connect to the Salvia-collective, I can access almost all of their power (if I need to) and use practically none of my own, except to hold the link open. To use an analogy: in some respects it's like being connected to a fusion reactor - most likely you'll only need a small fraction of that power, but if you do, it's available.
Very interesting, and the question it begs will perhaps seem trivial, but: doesn't a being have to be very powerful itself in order to channel much energy/many resources?
You have to be compatible, but not 'powerful' as humans typically understand that concept: the power comes from the Salvia Collective, of which you become a part. With shamanism generally, and most especially with entheogenic shamanism, you become altered and are no longer what you were before. In a sense, you are no longer exactly human. Not that I really was much before, being autistic and having an indwelling Tyger-spirit, but I'm more different now in that sense than I was in 2008 when my 'career' as a Salvia-shaman began.
Or are you telling that even a scared child might join the Salvia Collective and use its power to do something massive?
If the child was....what's the proper word, "latently shamanic" (I suppose what the Moderns would term 'psychic' although I really dislike that word) and they were either near someone who was a member of the Collective already, or perhaps in the presence of the wild plants themselves in Oaxaca Mexico, then they (the Salvia-people) would most likely step in themselves. It's happened to my daughter a number of times since she was a baby, and she's still too young to begin the training (she's 12 now).
Anyway, I'll read more about the Salvia shamans, I've not yet "figured" them well.
No reason you should have, both the Collective and most shamans associated with them like to keep a relatively low profile. Compared to, let's say, Ayahuasca and Ayahuasqueros. This doesn't count all of the 'recreational' users on YouTube et al who are only connected to idiocy and not the Collective.

User avatar
Mildir
Able Seaman (Veteran poster)
Able Seaman (<i>Veteran poster</i>)
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:33 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Mildir » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:18 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:59 pm
The occasion wherein I saw and interacted with this entity was unusual. I could perhaps send you the details (they are somewhere in my gmail archives from about 2010) but you'd have to promise to keep them private and not share them on this board or any other.
I'd surely like to know more about this encounter, especially because I used to study these particular beings and was one of the few who believed that understanding them was possible (whereas many colleagues of mine had concluded that a dimension dweller's mind is not projected to be compatible with their thinking).
It's up to you to decide whether to share more or not.
In case you do, I promise all information will be kept private.

I'm afraid we are going a bit off-topic here, so this will be my last message about personal experiences: I only meant to share them because they are what led me to believe that redemption is a human concept and finding your true nature (which is never wrong, as long as it is true and not feigned) is the real point.
So, in my opinion, the only reason why you should lead a "virtous" life is because you find that it reflects your nature, that it can help you express it. :)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

User avatar
Meneldur Olvarion
First Mate
First Mate
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 am
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Why Lead a Virtuous Life?

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:17 am

Mildir wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:18 pm
[...] I'm afraid we are going a bit off-topic here...,
Yeah, I have to answer an email from Luthien anyway, so I'll ask her to do a topic split. I want to keep this somewhere as it is quite interesting.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest