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Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:38 pm
by Taurandir
Perhaps someone who is more familiar with the Legendarium could answer this question for me.

When the Numenoreans attempted their invasion of Valinor, the Valar did nothing and Ilúvatar intervened. He buried their army in a landslide, sank Numenor into the sea, and then reshaped the world to put the Undying Lands beyond the reach of mortal men.

Is there any other point in the texts (either something in the Silmarillion I missed or from another book) when He takes an active hand in history. Beyond making the plan and incarnating it into reality, I mean. After the act of Creatioon, does llúvatar intervene at any point in the way things are unfolding other than the downfall of Nemenor?

I don't have any particular reason for this question, but I've been wondering about it for a few days. I haven't read the History of Middle Earth series except the first half of The Lost Tales Volume 1. I know Dave has an encyclopedic knowledge of the Legendarium.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

Re: Question Regarding Illúvatar

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:09 pm
by Elaran
Allowed the Dwarves and Ents, awakened the Elves and Men, what you mentioned = flat > round world, nudged the ring in the right direction, resurrected Gandalf, probably more.

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:18 pm
by Taurandir
I never thought about resurrecting Gandalf. I guess I always thought the Valar did that.

About nudging the ring in the right direction. Does that mean any time apparent random chance seems to be at play we can consider it the hand of Ilúvatar, or perhaps only when it seems to be an unbelievable coincidence.

He certainly doesn't seem to be directly communicating to Elves, Men or Dwarves. Ulmo does with the Elves, but we don't seem to see any other communication with the divine, unless you count Maiar like Sauron, Gandalf, Melian, etc.

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:37 am
by Lúthien
One thing that comes to mind: the interaction he had with Aulë when he had created the dwarves (starting with "Why hast thou done this thing, that thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority"), and later on in that story, his exchange with Manwë (based on Manwë's discussion with Yavanna) (starts with something like "Do none of you remember ....")

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:38 am
by Lúthien
Btw - his name is spelled with one l: Ilúvatar

See here

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:46 pm
by Taurandir
Lúthien wrote: his name is spelled with one l: Ilúvatar
Ah yes. Thank you.

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:56 am
by Meneldur Olvarion
There is the Tale of Adanel, which is one of the most direct I can remember at the moment, as well as the other instances people have mentioned. Here is the operative excerpt, but the 'backstory' is more complex than it may seem on the surface:
The Tale of Adanel in 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth' wrote:'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'
What He does is to shift the Fate of Men in a probabilistic manner; the Salvia-people call it "executing futures" ('executing' in an IT sense -- when I'm in a trance-state, they go through my mind like a big filing cabinet and pick out the closest terms to what they want to say). Here is a synopsis of the Tale:

The Tale of Adanel

Re: Question Regarding Ilúvatar

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:38 am
by Lúthien
Ahh yes, the tale of Adanel - that's what I was referring to in the discussion about sacrifices. The name eluded me there.