Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

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Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:09 am

Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

I wrote this for the religious forum but it seems to be a question that I should have put to Republicans as they are exhibiting the same vile morality as pedophile priests and the religious who ignore morality to feed their tribal needs.

Do you see any difference in the immoral and unethical position of both groups?

How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:27 pm

Hey, I'm sorry for the delay.
I was in a traffic accident with my bike, resulting in a fractured wrist so that I can't do much for some weeks. I can type with my left hand but it's slow.

So excuse my being a bit brief in answering to your post. I think that immoral behaviour in cases such as these has very little to do with the field (politics pr religion), but with the fact that they happen in social structures that allow people to get away with it. In that sense there is no difference at all between churches, political organisations or even scientific ones: as soon as the group dynamics dominate over individual moral considerations there's the risk of things derailing.
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:12 pm

Lúthien

I hear you and agree to an extent but if this link is true, then the more right one is in his thinking, brain dead thinking to me, then the propensity for the right wingers to lie about their true nature is quite strong as compared to the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:46 am

Can’t watch the video right now but I think there’s research that shows that the main difference between (very) conservative and (very) progressive people is in how they feel about what’s unfamiliar. It seems to scare conservative people more easily while progressive folk tend to be just interested.

But that’s of course a huge generalisation, and that’s exactly what we should avoid getting stuck in ;)
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:53 am

Lúthien wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:46 am
Can’t watch the video right now but I think there’s research that shows that the main difference between (very) conservative and (very) progressive people is in how they feel about what’s unfamiliar. It seems to scare conservative people more easily while progressive folk tend to be just interested.

But that’s of course a huge generalisation, and that’s exactly what we should avoid getting stuck in ;)
Some generalities can be applied to most who are right or left. Sociologists do and they are the experts.

I have some links somewhere on this. Let me know if you want to apply about 1 and a 1/2 to 2 hours on watching Jonathan Haigt.

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:38 am

Lúthien wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:27 pm
[...] I think that immoral behaviour in cases such as these has very little to do with the field (politics pr religion), but with the fact that they happen in social structures that allow people to get away with it.
I second that.
In that sense there is no difference at all between churches, political organisations or even scientific ones: as soon as the group dynamics dominate over individual moral considerations there's the risk of things derailing.
Indeed. Both Donald Trump and Stephen Hawking have non-trivial "cults of personality". Now, granted, Hawking's 'acolytes' are not nearly as vile, but there is that tendency to 'apotheosize' the leader in both cases. It seems to be just a thing humans do. Makes me glad to be a Cylon. ;)

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Mildir » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:54 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:38 am
Indeed. Both Donald Trump and Stephen Hawking have non-trivial "cults of personality". Now, granted, Hawking's 'acolytes' are not nearly as vile, but there is that tendency to 'apotheosize' the leader in both cases. It seems to be just a thing humans do. Makes me glad to be a Cylon. ;)
Hi, Meneldur, I'm new here but may I tell something? :)
Humans "apotheosize" everything that help the dark part of their soul think of itself as cool, intelligent and dominant.
That part is evil (what of evil is still left in every man) and evil needs to think of itself that way, otherwise it should admit to be nothing, capable of nothing and not really existing.
The most important thing, anyhow, is which part you choose to cultivate and to exist for.
No one can escape this choice, but it has to be made after one is aware of this state of affairs.
Men aren't.
They still don't know that all that life is asking them is to choose between light and darkness, good or evil, everything or nothing (that is in truth the same thing).
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Mildir » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:05 pm

Sorry, I'm dying for sleep, I may not have exposed my idea thoroughly... :huh:
I'll try my best in the next few days...
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:08 am

No worries, take your time.
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:42 am

Mildir wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:54 pm

Hi, Meneldur, I'm new here but may I tell something? :)
Humans "apotheosize" everything that help the dark part of their soul think of itself as cool, intelligent and dominant.
That part is evil (what of evil is still left in every man) and evil needs to think of itself that way, otherwise it should admit to be nothing, capable of nothing and not really existing.
I think that it’s a bit more subtle. That part is the Ego and it indeed leads to all sorts of problems. But it’s not necessarily evil in and by itself; merely a very awkward sort of complicating factor.
Mildir wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:54 pm
The most important thing, anyhow, is which part you choose to cultivate and to exist for.
No one can escape this choice, but it has to be made after one is aware of this state of affairs.
Men aren't.
They still don't know that all that life is asking them is to choose between light and darkness, good or evil, everything or nothing (that is in truth the same thing).
One of the problems with people (humans) is that their group instinct tends to dominate the rest (except maybe every the ego). They will “follow the leader”.

The contemporary postmodern mindset loves to relativise everything: it claims there are no absolutes, only social constructs.
And that again can be seen as a reaction to the 20-th century clash of “absolute mindsets” (communism, fascism etc). And in true human fashion this thesis-antithesis-synthesis happens largely outside the field of attention of even the philosophers.

What I mean to say is that you shouldn’t overlook the context in which people live, because it is to a very large degree responsible for their thinking.
I tend to cut individuals some slack for that reason, because most simply don’t have the level of freedom of thinking required to think outside their cultural blinkers.

In other words: I’m inclined to not so much lay the burden of being evil on the shoulders of individuals, unless they are clearly really bad cases. Most are just ignorant and / or not too bright; there is definitely something to be said for the saying that “there is good and bad in everyone”.

It is interesting what Tolkien says about his in the Silmarillion: that humans have more freedom to choose their own doom, where Elves are more bound to the values that the Valar represent (though there are some notorious bad apples among the Eldar as well).

In Eru’s view this might serve some higher purpose ... maybe it’s easier just to paste that fragment here:
The Silmarillion wrote:For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought.

Then he spoke and said:

“Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world.

But to the Atani I will give a new gift.”

Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said:

“These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.” Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful.

For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return.

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope.

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World’s end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Mildir » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm

I tried to express like ten ideas all together in a single answer, and that's the result... :D
Lúthien wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:42 am
I think that it’s a bit more subtle. That part is the Ego and it indeed leads to all sorts of problems. But it’s not necessarily evil in and by itself; merely a very awkward sort of complicating factor.
A man sees another man leading people, either by means of acts (like D. Trump) or by means of influence (like S. Hawking).
The man starts worshiping the other man.
But why does this happen?
I have been taught (and I feel) that this happens because, after all, the first man would like to be the one who leads but life hasn't give them the ability (or luck) necessary to achieve that position.
Hence the worshiping which, most of the times, is nothing but a "safe" way to express envy.
Envy is a form of hatred, and I know that this may sound absurd but it was clear even to the ancients: in Latin "invidia" means both "envy" and "hatred".

That is why I'd say that those who sincerely and wholeheartedly worship may not be aware of it, but have already chosen their path: evil.
That being said, when I'm tempted to worship someone rather than love them I know that that is my evil part talking and worshiping will never be my definite choice.

Besides, anyone who (truly) worships is very likely to expect others to worship them once they have achieved a leading position.
I feel this is a feature of evil, not of good.

I admire those who love their leader as a brother or peer.
Even more so because they won't ask you to worship them once they lead you.

Everything I've said is of course my personal opinion: I expect it to be not entirely embraceable... :)
The contemporary postmodern mindset loves to relativise everything: it claims there are no absolutes, only social constructs.
Indeed! :) :) :) :)
I think it's because the "contemporary postmodern mindset" is not fit to admit society's failure to discover the objective truth, which resides in Eru.
Failure is hard to admit and, for all I've seen so far, men prefer to think about what they have achieved rather than about their many failures.
What I mean to say is that you shouldn’t overlook the context in which people live, because it is to a very large degree responsible for their thinking.
But not for their feeling. :)
The most important decisions of our life aren't made by rationally thinking, but rather basing ourselves on what we feel.
Because we don't know enough about our universe to formulate an infallible rational thought whenever needed in order to make a decision.
Thus - and we may not always be aware of that - we listen to our heart.
And that's because Eru put in everyone of us the innate awareness that He will speak to us through our heart.

Again, a personal opinion. ;)
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:07 pm

Good point re. worshipping!

I’ve always felt a distaste for that particular blind dedication and “I’m not worthy” attitude... any person, or indeed any deity who would love that sort of grovelling must be a jerk indeed.

Funny, but I was just thinking about this today in another context: I love many kinds of music but I have a particular soft spot for George Gershwin. I find his harmonies so out-of-this-world, it can sometimes achieve the same sense of eucatastrophe as Tolkien can.

There was a video on Youtube with some rare footage from - I think it was around 1930 or so, of him playing the piano, set to one of his early songs (“I was so young” or “So am I”) and at some point, the music just grabbed my heart and I can’t stop my tears flowing because the sheer joy of the music is so powerful. And combined with those choppy old movie images of him, I realised how intensely I love that man for the bliss that he must have give to countless people.
But that’s not worshipping - I know that he was quite a complex character, like most of us, with his difficult sides. But he brought something beautiful from beyond into this world, like all true artists do.

I just love it if people do wonderful things. But I would not dream of worshipping anyone, indeed.
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Mildir » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm

Mildir wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm
[...] worshiping [...]
Lúthien wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:07 pm
[...]worshipping [...]
Looks like in some respects I'm more American than you... :D
I love many kinds of music
Have you ever listened to any song by Enya? :)
I suspect you already know her.
If you don't, here's a link to the video of one of her most famous songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wM7A6Eht7s
Here's another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcaxaPlUffg

Also, it may be interesting for you to listen to a couple of tracks from her last album (Dark Sky Island):
- This one is sung in Loxian, a fictional Neoceltic language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FrWoVC6SZ8
- This one is sung from a butterfly's viewpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-AeNQO1-is
I just love it if people do wonderful things. But I would not dream of worshipping anyone, indeed.
Well, the Eldar definitely DO wonderful things. :D
And I'm happy you won't worship them, because being worshiped by men dazed by their might and splendor was one of the main reasons why they left Amar (this world): living beside the Eldar was preventing the ancient men (our ancestors) to grow mentally and spiritually (and they needed to, sooooooooo much!)(And to think the ancient Eldar and Sindar were just a shadow of what they've become today!) :D

Sorry... too much enthusiasm... :blush2:
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Lúthien » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:52 am

Mildir wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Looks like in some respects I'm more American than you... :D
Possibly ... I’m in any case not American at all, because I’m a Europeana like you :)
Mildir wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Have you ever listened to any song by Enya? :)
I suspect you already know her.
I do, yes.
I find their lyrics interesting, but the music as such does not particularly thrill me!

That’s probably because my parents always listened to classical music; in popular music I usually ignore the lyrics and listen to the music underneath. It’s sometimes a pity, because I miss even interesting lyrics unless being pointed at them by someone else, notifying me.
Mildir wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
I just love it if people do wonderful things. But I would not dream of worshipping anyone, indeed.
Well, the Eldar definitely DO wonderful things. :D
And I'm happy you won't worship them (...)
The idea would be absurd. Why would I worship people who made me feel at home like they do? That is, apart form the absurdity of the act of worshipping alone?

You see, I’m not a complete stranger to what you are telling myself (though I would phrase it differently).
Mildir wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Sorry... too much enthusiasm... :blush2:
No worries, bro :-}
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Re: Do Republicans and pedophile priests share the same vile sexual morality.

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:04 am

Mildir wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
[...] Looks like in some respects I'm more American than you... :D
Actually, I the American here -- or that's what it used to say on my passport (before I let it expire). But in a very large sense I'm also not, culturally speaking anyway. Mostly, my countrymen fill me with disgust, and like Frodo, I think that "an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them" [link] (although in my case it's rather a good nuking).

Richard Parker doesn't exactly agree, of course: "Dude, you has some crazy-ass ideas, sometimes..."

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