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Meneldur Olvarion
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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Tue May 15, 2018 1:22 am

Preamble: This thread for sure needs a topic split, but until that takes place I shall continue posting into it.
Mildir wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 am
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 2:38 am
So, since I can travel to far places [...] without dying first and using special techniques, doesn't this give me an evolutionary advantage?
Every Elda could do it.
They traveled to remote places in the same way you do (approximately): they visited like half the universe through their mind. They discovered what's outside our galaxy and they discovered that there are not only systems of galaxies, but even one system of systems of galaxies: Aleranya, that's what they called it.
Galactic superclusters, yes.
The Eldar who come here do not die: they fall asleep and they reawaken in the body of a human.
They live in that body for a time.
When it's time to go back home the human body dies and they reawaken in their original body.
Have your contacts explained why an Elda's spirit would 'jump' to a human, considering they are completely different 'experiments' with regard to "the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time", as JRRT put it in Letter 181. Or more explicitly:
JRRT in Letter 131 wrote:[...] The making, and nature, of the Children of God, were the two chief secrets. All that the gods {Valar} knew was that they would come, at appointed times. The Children of God are thus primevally related and akin, and primevally different. Since also they are something wholly 'other' to the gods, in the making of which the gods played no part, they are the object of the special desire and love of the gods. These are the First-born, the Elves; and the Followers Men. The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning – and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden': a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves.
Wouldn't this 'jumping' tend to muddy the distinction between the two, especially since there already exists a fusion of Human, Elda, and Maia in the Line of Luthien? Why would "extra copies" of different origin be necessary?
They need to become human because before the end of the Dominion of Men they cannot publicly show who they really are.
That is Manwë's will.
One of them was enough: a mediator, once, came here as an Elda and with the abilities of an Elda, including moving things without touching them and so on.
This started a religion, even if this wasn't exactly what the mediator wanted, and this religion inspired the masses to do also very very bad things.
Is this the reason for this edict (the "because before the end of the Dominion of Men they cannot publicly show who they really are")? Also, did this religion have a name that you are aware of? More importantly (to my mind) approximately how many years ago was this?

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Tue May 15, 2018 10:19 am

Ante-scriptum: The content of this post must be taken as a personal truth of mine and not as a universal truth.
In it I talk about things that I identify as memories and about things which people I trust said to me but cannot be verified.
End of the ante-scriptum.

Meneldur, what you ask would require an incredibly complex answer and I think we are going to need to talk about very delicate topics.
Some of them might hurt the feelings of deeply religious members of the forum, if there are any.
I now turn to them: everything I've ever said and will ever say - except for my encounter with people who said (and showed) they were Eldar - is part of a personal gnostic experience or has been reported to me by people who had one.
It is not meant as an attack on any religion or belief.
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:22 am
Have your contacts explained why an Elda's spirit would 'jump' to a human [...]
Wouldn't this 'jumping' tend to muddy the distinction between the two [...]?
No.
Because it is not the entire spirit of the Elda that is relocated into a human body (otherwise the Elda's body would die), it's just a little part of it.
The transfer process is supervised by the Valar.
But an entirely comparable process, I've been taught, takes place spontaneously (or rather: by the will of the One) when a human being is born for the first time.
Because the spirit of a human being, according to my memories, is nothing but a very little part of the spirit of an Elda.
This is how Eru created the Second Ones, men.
He took a tiny part of the spirit of every Elda and He used it to give life to a human.
The process was undetectable, so, for a long time, the Eldar never realized that the creatures they often mocked were nothing but very little Eldar.
Their younger brothers, in every way.
It took time, but - according to what Nilwen said - they eventually understood it.

One more thing: according to what I learnt in Valinor, after a human being is born for the first time, his spirit will continue to exist in Amar through many lives.
When a man dies, in other words, he is reborn as another man's son.
In the majority of cases, the man doesn't remember the name he had in the previous life, or the place(s) where he lived.
But he remembers what his heart (or "inner mind") has learnt.
If he has learnt, say, a profound truth about God or life, he will remember it.
If he has learnt the value of love, he will remember it, and so on and so forth.

Men exist for a reason and their existence is - due to its true nature - full of suffering.
If men never died they couldn't bear this suffering, they couldn't bear all the pain.
That is also why death has been called a "gift": because its presence eases the pain.
I suppose this begs a big question: why all this pain? Why Eru (according to Mildir and friends) created men in the first place?
I cannot but answer to this question by quoting a renowned Valinorean book: The Eruvóhision or, in English, The Misteries of the One.
This book was written by Eönwë in his language and I know some important parts of it by heart.
This is one of them (I'll put the English translation in bold under each line of the original text I remember, which comes from a Quenya version of the book):
I nélë ëa, ve terhlanieva, i nalu yan Eru iciltúra ar anoconúra tanfaryat’ óhetien erë fexë ócastuyalerya vena hanuma larcavë.

Pain is, ultimately, the price that the One has chosen and accepted to pay for eliminating one defect of His structure as soon as possible.

I fexë suna ya ipemmistuss’ imbë márië ñumyë.

Such defect is the promiscuity between good and evil.

Monwa nayuryantë yav’ ilmin atto et úterhlanna terhlanna, ter i atta, tertulië minië hanyanë.

It has been necessary in order that each one of them might begin to turn, through the other, from indefinite to definite.

I tyerë suna terhlantaleva anahilië hanyuva ata nai ar ammanya lémemë terhilyuva nai sátuna nayuvar eltet.

Such journey of definition can continue, and will indeed continue in a better way, if they are separated.

I tyerë suna terhlantaleva mínë yav’ Eru se senya hanyanë anistë, ar tev’ elwë ter entë.

Such journey of definition began in order that the One might learn to know Himself and we might learn to know ourselves through Him.

Epë sa ya tyerë mínë márië ñumyë santa nëaner, nan ilminë ministyanë lá ya ëanë.

Before the journey began good and evil were separated, but neither of them was aware of being, nor was it aware of its own nature.

Né ya ipemmistuss’ imbë tet i solma minieva tyerëo sun ëanë, apa fexë terutuluryanë.

If the promiscuity between them was initially the key to the beginning of such journey, it has then become a defect.

Fexë yanan Erunë hormya suna tyexenn’ opevatië sa etaletuyantë ya nélë quanta terien in ter elwë terya.

A defect which the One is so eager to overcome that He is disposed to experience all the pain He is experiencing through us.

An yata sátuna, márië ñumyë nelyuvar út’ er i artanen, ai ata hanyat’ anistyat’ er i artanen.

For once they are separated, good and evil will no longer suffer because of each other, although they will be able to learn from each other.

I surë Arda enivintuyuryuva.

On that day the world will be renewed.
I believe this can answer to the first question: why all this pain?
As regards the second question (i.e.: "Why Eru - according to Mildir and friends - created men in the first place?), which I believe is the one you are more interested in... well, I could answer in my own words, but I prefer to quote Tiriel Feradan.
She is the Prime Mediator of this age.
At the age of 20 I received a message in my mind, a message she sent via linósanwë (it means that she spoke to many people all at once and she did it through the mind).
This message, as I'd soon understand, addressed all the lightbringers and it was of course in Mithren.
Since I wrote it down in my diary shortly after receiving it, I'll copy it here.
I've always divided it conceptually into five parts.
So, again, I'll put the English translation in bold under each part.
“I-amarth in-adaneth orchuiad na-ngú, ú-hen dredalthad, an o then de dredalthatha hen”
“The destiny of men is to survive evil, not to defeat it, as it shall defeat itself alone”

“Nár edh in-errinnail in-linnor od in i-hin andunia”
“You are the catalysts of the speed with which this is happening”

“Cilthannen anedh ed i-Valaneth an andunianne han ben chegrad ilphen, hegol i-han i-phened in-lú dhin. An aner edh odsannen ve ian-erui gareb o nungoeliad i-ubvador sin, ar e then in-erui gareb on edlengad i-mored sin”
“You have been chosen by the Valar so that this would happen without anything being sacrificed, except for some of your time. As you have been identified as the only ones who could endure this process, and therefore the only ones who could carry out this task”

“Be istar edh galacholiellen edui, Eru gaern i-adaneth an aen i-ngú der hene hannen ed i-maned. Ná hen i-errinnal on i-hádad e-maned ed i-ngú. I-mored lin i-han o hen sediad han na nád.”
“As you lightbringers already know, The One made men so that evil might be through them separated from good. They are the catalysts of the separation of good from evil. Your task is to help them be that”

“Ná han sui, Eru gaern i-daedath, i-adaneth, enhannad na nádad na-ngú ian gonennant i-minenath, i-Edhelath. I-Edhelath, on van i-adaneth obed i-morchanad, nan nár in-nossed na hened i-idial.
An ú-ná ia-húl in-adaneth obed sad did e-húl in-Edhelath. Na sin, be ane han bennen, bannatha hen go hene der in-vaid in-Maun Arnor”
“It is so, The One made the second ones, men, in order to remedy the evil that afflicted the first ones, Elves. Elves, of which men aren’t but the shadow, but the two births are in truth the same one.
As the spirit of men isn’t but a little part of the spirit of Elves. Therefore, as it has been said, they shall walk with them through the roads of the Blessed Realm”
When reading these words, there is something important you have to keep in mind: it is impossible for an Elda to be the catalyst of the separation of good from evil.
Because an Elda's spirit is by nature good-oriented.
It is so full of light that there is almost no place in it for any darkness.
A man, on the other hand, is a more balanced creature.
I could explain it this way: men are "grey" and Eldar are "white".
And, well, those that some call "demons" (like the Balrogs), they would be "black".
Only a "grey" creature can be the perfect catalyst of the separation of good from evil.
Through its choices, through the everyday life.
In the end, the "grey" creature will decide whether it wants to be "white" or "black".
And this will cause the irreversible separation of good from evil.
Which is the target of Eru, as well as the next step of the evolution of the universe, according to everything Nilwen and my memories tell.
There will no longer be a "grey" universe, where good and evil are seen together.
There will be two realms: Ilcamar, the realm of light, and Nurumar, the realm of darkness.
Ilcamar will be "inside", like a core, or a yolk, and Nurumar will be "outside", enfolding Ilcamar.
The process of formation of these two realms has a final stage, which the Eldar call The Schism of Light.
And it is about to take place: it will mark the end of the Dominion of Men, according to what I've been taught.

A curiosity: Nurumar already exists, it's just incomplete.
It will be complete when it will be entirely separated from Ilcamar.
I have been taught that you can access to this realm by crossing the event horizon, the boundary marking the limits of a black hole.
I don't know if you remember: the Silmarillion tells about the Door of Night, a "gateway" through which Morgoth was expelled.
"Door of night" was a metaphorical way to indicate a black hole, to make it understandable by the ancient Eldar, who did not know what a black hole was.

I still have to answer to your other questions...
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:22 am
Is this the reason for this edict (the "because before the end of the Dominion of Men they cannot publicly show who they really are")?
Yes.
Also, did this religion have a name that you are aware of?
Yes.
Christianity.
Because the mediator I spoke of is the one we call Jesus.
According to my memories, his true name is Aranwë Erundur.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Lúthien » Tue May 15, 2018 2:03 pm

Mildir wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:19 am
Some of them might hurt the feelings of deeply religious members of the forum, if there are any.
FYI - this is a gnostic forum.

If people’s feelings would be hurt by saying things that go against dogma, then this forum is the worst place for them to be.
That is, also apart from whatever you wish to say.

So, no worries in that regard.

The only things that doesn’t go down well around here, is disregarding the difference there exists between marginal and factual (despite any topological similarities there might exist); or the more vexing, active form of the same fallacy, confounding facts with unverified personal gnosis - as has been amply demonstrated above :)

BTW - Mildir, I sent you an email.
A! Elin velui, dîn dolog, aduial lúthad!

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Tue May 15, 2018 3:05 pm

Lúthien wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:03 pm
BTW - Mildir, I sent you an email.
Read it.
I answered. :)

In the meantime I shall say this (to everyone):

Everything I say in the above message is not factual, but unverified personal gnosis.

It lies in my heart and no one has to believe that anything of it is real.

Also, I'm sorry if my message vexed someone (and you, Lúthien).
I was happy I had sent it, because it contains something I've been wanting to share with you since I began to write in this forum.
I hope you'll be able to understand that I'm not trying to say that what I say is truer than what you (readers) believe or see as true.

This is my truth, not a universal truth

I hope it is more clear now...

P.S.: I just edited my previous post. I added an ante-scriptum. I hope it will do. :)

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Wed May 16, 2018 8:11 am

Mildir wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:05 pm
[...] Everything I say in the above message is not factual, but unverified personal gnosis.

It lies in my heart and no one has to believe that anything of it is real.
There, you see. Had you done this in the beginning, or at least after you saw my earlier messages in the Mars thread (upon which I spent considerable labor, by the way, not just in correcting all of my default mis-keys, but in choosing explanatory links), then all of this could have been avoided. That's what I was trying to convey with my explanations, and is what Luthien meant by "please consider your audience". Which is very important: I'm sure that on a New Agey forum, they wouldn't have batted an eye at what bothered us, but they may have had problems with some other issue(s).

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 am

Looks like I've definitely overestimated people's proclivity to take it for granted.
I kept telling "this is a personal experience" or "these are memories" and I, maybe naively, thought it would suffice...
But Lúthien told me that it didn't, that people kept taking what I told as being presented as a universal truth...
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:11 am
or at least after you saw my earlier messages in the Mars thread
Those posts will haunt me forever! :sorry:
upon which I spent considerable labor, by the way, not just in correcting all of my default mis-keys, but in choosing explanatory links
And I thank you for having spent it. :)
What you told was useful and if I didn't answer point by point, it's just because I'm too ignorant about technicalities concerning some specific sectors of science.
What I know is what I saw and this is all I wanted to talk with you about, originally...

I have been recently told two things: that I risk to be thought of as crazy by people (of course) and, if I got it right, that it is strange to suggest that Jesus was an Elda.
So, I wanted to share with you something I've been told by a real person: Lada Haldeson.
I honestly think that the fact that she presented herself as an Elda (and I can only say this: she didn't just say "I'm an Elda". She and her three friends were far more "elvish", in all their aspects, than PJ's Liv Tyler or Orlando Bloom, who look wholly fake compared to one of them) doesn't make what she told me less true.
And I remember I kept telling her: "I cannot tell anyone you exist, they'd tell I'm crazy"
And she replied: "Crazy is he who doesn't think he's crazy. That's also an Eldarin saying and it applies especially to the environment you will grow up in. For now that you have seen me and the others, don't you think that all those people down there, who believe that creatures like us cannot exist, are crazier than you are indeed?"
She also used to say "Look the world upside down: you'll see it as it is. What is normal is not. What is crazy is not" or something very much like this.

About Jesus: when I think of Lada (assuming that she was who she always told she was) and of the Eldar who live in those I identify as memories, I realize that they have the same behaviour as Jesus. They are even more perfect. And the Eldar I speak of have been performing those that people call "miracles" since long before Jesus came amongst men. At least according to those I identify as memories.
Why would the simple possibility that Jesus was one of them be strange? :)

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Wed May 16, 2018 12:23 pm

Mildir wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 am
Those posts will haunt me forever! :sorry:
Meaning: my posts. I'm not sure if it's clear... :D

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Wed May 16, 2018 12:24 pm

Mildir wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 am
[...] Looks like I've definitely overestimated people's proclivity to take it for granted.
Most likely. You also ran up against one of Dave Woosley's (my real name) axioms, specifically: "I believe nothing; I perceive everything" - or everything within the range of my five sense, shamanic, and cognitive post-processing perceptual abilities anyway. It's quite 'atomic' (not in the sense of nuclear physics, but in the original sense of "a small individual and indivisible construct"). For example, in sentence I often use: "I don't believe that I exist; rather, I perceive it" which people often equate to René Descartes' "I think, therefore I am" (Cogito, ergo sum), but which really isn't when you consider my preconditions mentioned above.

It was my inability to perceive the things you accept as True directly and primarily, and the fact that some of them were contradicted secondarily by scientific evidence, not just the lack of it, that caused the cognitive dissonance. For example, that Mars lost most of it's atmosphere (and continues to do so at a much lower rate) early in our solar system's history, either before life began in either Earth or Mars, or with consequences enough to exterminate it on Mars within a geologically short time. [link] Now, I'm sure most Moderns accept scientific data "on faith" much as the various religions accept their religious data, but I'm not one of those people.
[...] She and her three friends were far more "elvish", in all their aspects, than PJ's Liv Tyler or Orlando Bloom, who look wholly fake compared to one of them) doesn't make what she told me less true.
Some members of this forum really like those movies, but I shall just charitably say that I'm not in that group either. ;) Then again, I'm not "Elf-centric"; I'm "Tiger-therianthrope with a large dash of Cylon" centric ('Cylon' being a very useful personal metaphor for what I believe some autistic people may eventually become once the incipient speciation process is complete - "And when the machine stops, time was an illusion that we created free will. Twelve battles, three stars, and yet we are countless as the bodies in which we dwell, are both parent and infinite children in perfect copies. No degradation."). Another sort of perfection of different origin, although I do recognize the validity of the Line of Luthien continued into the present day.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Wed May 16, 2018 1:49 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:24 pm
You also ran up against one of Dave Woosley's (my real name) axioms, specifically: "I believe nothing; I perceive everything"
It is most curious that this is the very same axiom on which the culture Lada introduced me to is based.
And she said it is the current Eldarin culture.
And all the memories of a past life which are in my head also tell this.
It was my inability to perceive the things you accept as True directly and primarily, [...] that caused the cognitive dissonance.
You are saying you are unable to perceive the existence of the Eldar as I have described them to you, is that it?
Even just as possible.
This, if it is indeed true for you, makes me want to ask you a question: is there something you perceive and which is at the same time something factual (such as the body of a person or a thing you can touch) and something which a human scientist would never believe is possible?
How many realities do you perceive?
How many possible imminent clashes of realities do you perceive right now?
For example, that Mars lost most of it's atmosphere (and continues to do so at a much lower rate) early in our solar system's history
I never suggested that Mars lost most of its atmosphere. Because I don't know whether it did it or not.
I do not wish to touch upon the subject "Mars" again.
So, I'll tell you something else: the one who presented himself to me as an Elda named Arphin (and who other people besides me have met and call Emanuel/Arphin) said that many of the assumptions of modern scientists are completely wrong.
He said they all think they know that earth has been so far illuminated by a single sun, but that this is wrong.
He said that there's even been a short period of time during which there was no sun to support life on this planet.
And yet life was there, against all expectations of modern science, against all reasonable expectations.
Because, he said "life is not reasonable. Life simply is".
I remember he said so because I wrote down many things he and his friends told me, often the day after they told them.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Wed May 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Mildir wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:49 pm
[...]
It was my inability to perceive the things you accept as True directly and primarily, [...] that caused the cognitive dissonance.
You are saying you are unable to perceive the existence of the Eldar as I have described them to you, is that it?
Perception of the Eldar is certainly possible when I Journey to Valinor via Trance. It's the "as I have described them to you" part that causes trouble. It's like that old joke: "I talk to God all the time, and no offense, but He never mentioned you." Replace 'God' with "The Valar" and you've got it. IV was originally started as a Valar-specific trance Journeying group, and that's still the main focus for us "old hands". If you want an Elven-focused group, that would be Tië eldaliéva, which I helped start before this one (I left when the focus changed). Not that there aren't Elven-focused people here, I'm just not one of them.
This, if it is indeed true for you, makes me want to ask you a question: is there something you perceive and which is at the same time something factual (such as the body of a person or a thing you can touch) and something which a human scientist would never believe is possible?
How many realities do you perceive?
How many possible imminent clashes of realities do you perceive right now?
Sorry, but I don't fully understand the question. My perception (especially when Salvia-enhanced) is a super-set of reality as perceived by the ordinary humans, not a subset of it. It's just that when I perceive objects also perceptible by the ordinary humans, the extra information I get is almost always affine, not disjoint. Whether a scientist (or whoever) believes that is not my concern. I'm not a "social animal". As for "clashes of realities - it simply doesn't happen, for the reasons I just described.
For example, that Mars lost most of it's atmosphere (and continues to do so at a much lower rate) early in our solar system's history
I never suggested that Mars lost most of its atmosphere. Because I don't know whether it did it or not.
I see something has been lost in translating from language to language. It was I who stated (not suggested) this fact. It was - I see now, rather too oblique on my part - reference to your statement that there was an advanced species on Mars, which simply isn't possible via local evolutionary processes. Unless they evolved somewhere else, but as I said in an earlier thread, aliens don't interest me. I'm one of those "rare Earth" theorists, which many scientists discount because of the number of exo-planets currently discovered, but that doesn't sway me in that direction either. As I said, I'm not a social animal. Or to put it more bluntly, "Dave Woosley listens mainly to his own voice." If I weren't aware of the reality of spiritual beings, I'd probably be one of those Anton LeVey Satanists ("I am my God").
So, I'll tell you something else: the one who presented himself to me as an Elda named Arphin (and who other people besides me have met and call Emanuel/Arphin) said that many of the assumptions of modern scientists are completely wrong.
He said they all think they know that earth has been so far illuminated by a single sun, but that this is wrong.
He said that there's even been a short period of time during which there was no sun to support life on this planet.
And yet life was there, against all expectations of modern science, against all reasonable expectations.
The he was giving you false information. Full stop. And if you don't like that answer, consider that you forced me into it. Also consider that this may not be the forum for you if this is the sort of tripe you're going to continue to post. I'm really not a nice guy when provoked.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Wed May 16, 2018 4:52 pm

It seems very unfair that science has the power to make many people think that something I talk about is not possible when science itself cannot explain why it should not be possible.
This surely causes me frustration.
This is the way I see modern science: it rules out everything it cannot explain, until its existence is revealed.
Then, and only then, it transforms itself in order to become fit to explain it.
Is my way of seeing science really wrong?
And if not: how can something that transforms itself be used to actually prove that anything is impossible?
How, given that it could always be about to transform itself and become fit to explain that it is possible?

I think you, Meneldur, perceived my frustration and my desire to tell this: I am profoundly convinced that there are enormous wrong assumptions in modern human science (regardless of what Emanuel told me when I was a child. Because I'm more than ready to call into question his statements, if necessary).
That is all I wanted to say when I quoted Emanuel and I'm really sorry, and a bit surprised, that you felt provoked.
If there was indeed any provocation in my message, it wasn't surely directed to you or to any single individual.
It was directed to science itself.

I may not have seen things such as the one that Emanuel mentioned, but I have seen things which science cannot explain.
With my own eyes.
And many times, during my short life, I have been told that they are not possible because science tells us so.
It just seemed me unfair, I cannot but admit that.

I know Tië Eldaliéva, I'm surprised that it has such a strong connection with this site.
With my question I just wanted to ask if you can feel the fact that there are other realities besides ours and that some of them may soon "touch" it and show to everyone that we are not alone in the universe.
I've felt both of these things very clearly in my (inner and outer) mind since I was a little child.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Wed May 16, 2018 9:57 pm

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:15 pm
Perception of the Eldar is certainly possible when I Journey to Valinor via Trance. [...] IV was originally started as a Valar-specific trance Journeying group
I must say that what you say here is extremely interesting. :)
I would like to know more about your journeys, if you don't mind revealing a bit more of them.
I don't know if you think it is a good idea, but I thought we might open a new thread in which we compare those I perceive as "memories of the Valar contained in my head" with the visions of the Valar you had.
Maybe we might even open a thread where everyone can say how they see or saw the Valar, wouldn't that be constructive?

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu May 17, 2018 11:18 am

Mildir wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:52 pm
It seems very unfair that science has the power to make many people think that something I talk about is not possible when science itself cannot explain why it should not be possible.
This surely causes me frustration.
This is the way I see modern science: it rules out everything it cannot explain, until its existence is revealed.
Then, and only then, it transforms itself in order to become fit to explain it.
This might seem less frustrating if you studied the history of science and its application. All it really is, is a knowledge acquisition system for quantifiable data - and the quantifiable part is very important. It just discounts things that are not measurable because it wasn't designed to deal with those. Now, the egos of scientists I'm sure do sometimes (perhaps even, 'often') indeed act arrogant and dismissive, but those are the egos of individuals, and have nothing to do with science itself as a system. They have no more validity as egos than does that of an angry soccer fan.

I personally don't agree with some of the classic paradigms of science, such as making a hypothesis and then looking for both supporting and countervailing data. My way is to watch "the signal arise from the data" (or fail to arise) using mathematical techniques. But, this has only become possible with the advent of supercomputing in the past decade or so, capable of dealing with huge observational data-sets.
That is all I wanted to say when I quoted Emanuel and I'm really sorry, and a bit surprised, that you felt provoked.
Part of it was that some of these things you mention aren't just false in science, they are also false in my shamanic perceptions, which as I said earlier are a superset (i.e., have more validity than) the scientific ones. There is also another aspect that has nothing to do with either of these, and that is the fact (as I saw earlier today) that you are a twenty-something, and Dave Woosley tends to react with twenty-something males like metallic potassium in water, sooner or later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy1DC6Euqj4

Why is this? Even I don't know exactly, but it is a fact. I get along much better with women.
Mildir wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:57 pm
[...] I must say that what you say here is extremely interesting. :)
I would like to know more about your journeys, if you don't mind revealing a bit more of them.
I don't know if you think it is a good idea, but I thought we might open a new thread in which we compare those I perceive as "memories of the Valar contained in my head" with the visions of the Valar you had.
Maybe we might even open a thread where everyone can say how they see or saw the Valar, wouldn't that be constructive?
Well, they aren't just mine - all of us "old hands" have done and recorded these on this board. Much of the board is probably not visible to you at your access level. You can ask Luthien if you might view some of them, although, normally, we only did that for people willing to actually do the meditations and make reports.

Anyway you can negotiate with her. I'm taking a break from posting for a few days, not only because of recent on-board issues, but because my wife and I have a backyard meadow project to finish on our rural property here.

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Re: Discussion split off from ‘Gondolin music’

Post by Meneldur Olvarion » Thu May 17, 2018 11:34 am

P.S. The whole "signal arising from the data" paradigm was how both T-e and IV got built from the ground-up, originally. It's just that because most of the Legendarium data is not quantifiable, scientific techniques either could not be used at all, or could only be used in pieces, so it was made using the "signal arises from the data" paradigm, but used shamanic detection techniques instead. And my natural pattern-matching ones.

And others added their input, of course, and after a while it/they just grew.

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Re: Gondolin music

Post by Mildir » Thu May 17, 2018 1:48 pm

When you feel like it, it will be a pleasure to know better your position on the non-quantifiable data contained in the Silmarillion. :)
What makes me curious is, in particular, the possibility that your journeys (as well as those of the old hands) have led you to witness the aspect of elements which - in the story - tend to be explained mystically (or, sometimes, "in metaphors"), such as Telperion and Laurelin or the fact that the Eldar have been born under the stars and in a sunless earth.
It would be interesting, in other words, to know what signal has arised from certain specific data, if they have been analyzed.
And the reason is that I never got to meet anyone who had analyzed any of them and tried to make a signal arise from them.
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:18 am
It just discounts things that are not measurable because it wasn't designed to deal with those.
What I was saying above is that science should start from the assumption that everything is possible and thence try to explain how every single conceivable thing is possible.
But, ever since I started to observe scientists, they have seemed to me to be more committed to dividing things into possible and not possible (to make it easier for you to understand what I mean I could quote this page: https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/ ... the_light/. Take, for example, this line: "Hence, thanks to Einstein's thought experiment, we infer that an emission theory cannot be formulated as a local field theory.").
And the concept of "non-quantifiable" often overlapped the one of "not possible".
In my view, the One (or, if you prefer, the universe) is infinite and, as such, He is infinite possibilities.
That means that there doesn't exist something which is really impossible.
It's just all about finding out how it is possible.
Is my reasoning flawed, in your opinion?
(Feel free to tell me what you think whenever you want to)

Btw: I'm almost 30 but, in my mind, I feel so old as to think it is time to go. :D

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