Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

including those referred to as 'spiritual' by those concerned
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Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Broken_Mirror33 »

I have recently begun reading a book recommended by Miguel in an "Abraxas Brief": Above, Below, Within. So, I thought it would make a good forum discussion. In particular, the book brings up a novel take on the supernatural, which I have never even considered. The idea that the planets cause effects here on Earth that are beyond the realm of scientific understanding.

Now, I would call that "supernatural," wouldn't you? Of course, the author's notion is much more nuanced than that and he does make a compelling argument, but that's the gist of it. He also uses this understanding as the basis of a system of magic and claims all magical systems are based on it. (I don't know about you, but this book brings out the "Elven" in me.)

But I want to hear others' takes on the matter:
If the planets are, indeed, responsible for producing these "magical" effects here on Earth, would you consider this as a supernatural phenomenon?

...Almost forgot, here's the link to the 'Abraxas Brief' (you can pick up the book in the show notes):
https://youtu.be/rBLdkWXPHQU
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir »

In my opinion "supernatural" is a word bound to a world we ought to leave behind: the world in which "nature" means "all we know and can explain" and everything beyond this is "supernatural"... S)
There may be a thousand different realities, but there is only one nature.
Which implies that nothing is above it, nothing breaks it.

I would have a lot to say about ceremonial magic... I prefer not to do it here, though... :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Broken_Mirror33 »

There definitely is a supernatural and there must be if science is to evolve. Because there are most certainly things with which science cannot answer and these things by definition are "supernatural" phenomena. Realize, science still cannot fully explain space and time, which are fundamental to our understanding of anything. As for the word itself (a matter of semantics), I am neutral here. The supernatural doesn't "break" nature it breaks our understanding of nature--it implies it must be reexamined and explained in further detail (in light of new evidence). So what? Simply rewrite the science books. Like the recent discovery of gravity waves, which in my opinion, shows Minkowski spacetime to be false or just a mathematical model which doesn't accurately portray nature.

I respect your opinion, but my opinion is that science describes the least of things; the least of what something is. The spiritual bows to the endless in everything; the mystery.
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion »

Science is designed to deal with the quantifiable: if one can't define a useful metric for a phenomenon, then it is outside the realm of scientific inquiry. The problem is Moderns tend to believe, falsely, that science applies to everything. As more of a pure mathematician, it is perhaps easier for me to see this error in judgement directly.
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir »

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:05 pm
The problem is Moderns tend to believe, falsely, that science applies to everything. As more of a pure mathematician, it is perhaps easier for me to see this error in judgement directly.
Aren't you, with this statement, implying that science (as we know it) is NOT the best key to understanding everything ? :)

I always saw (earthly) science as a first step along the way towards really knowing our universe (in essence, at least), which is though too self-referential to evolve into a wholly successful analysis instrument.
The "other" science I witnessed, the science of spirit, allows you to define a useful metric for phenomena currently regarded as non-quantifiable.
Which leads me to think that anyone who is really devoted to knowledge should "give it a try"...

It's really all about three steps:
1 - Starting to think as if the universe were INSIDE us and not AROUND us.
2 - Defining the coordinates of a point in that universe by exploring it. That point is a piece of truth. Objective truth.
3 - A signal will arise in what we call "reality". Finding it is equivalent and leads to gaining concrete evidence of that objective truth. In order to find it we have to: map - even incompletely - the universe we explored, map - even incompletely - reality as we know it, and then find the coordinates of the signal that arose in reality with the help of the coordinates we defined for the above-mentioned point.

It's an attempt of definition, guys, I'm not as good as Lada at this and it could probably be better explained, but I think you can all get the point: two worlds, seeing one as a projection of the other, learning how to discover one through the other, because nothing can be discovered by looking at it from... IT! *gives himself up* :D
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion »

Mildir wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 am
Aren't you, with this statement, implying that science (as we know it) is NOT the best key to understanding everything ? :)
Well 'everthing' is what we'd call in math the "set of all sets", but since science only works with what you can measure, then by definition it doesn't work with 'everything'. It isn't of any use in determining which Paris fashion should be the fad this this year for example. Although you could use science (economics and statistics) to determine what the infusion of money into local economies that supplied raw materials for the suits and dresses did.
The "other" science I witnessed, the science of spirit, allows you to define a useful metric for phenomena currently regarded as non-quantifiable.

[...]

In order to find it we have to: map - even incompletely - the universe we explored, map - even incompletely - reality as we know it, and then find the coordinates of the signal that arose in reality with the help of the coordinates we defined for the above-mentioned point.
I'd need to see an example of that technique. Otherwise, although I can certainly understand your words, I can't attach them to anything.
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir »

Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:00 pm
I'd need to see an example of that technique. Otherwise, although I can certainly understand your words, I can't attach them to anything.
I can only tell you about my experience.
For me it's been all about making my mind do very specific things, which would then lead to visible and factual results.

I might divide the process into steps:

- I told myself: "Don't think as if reality were AROUND you, think as if it were a set of instructions to discover a universe INSIDE you"
- I consequently thought: "If that were what it is, that would mean that a thing which exists in reality exists also in this inner universe (and viceversa)"
- I evoked in my mind the memory of some friends of mine's house, a house I had never entered, in fact I had only seen it from outside.
- I told myself: "I need to act as if my inner universe were right behind my eyes. So, when I close my eyes I'll enter that universe"
- I closed my eyes and I knew I was in
- There was nothing but black, in the beginning, but I knew I could voyage through that black and find things.
- I told myself: "I have to find my friends' house. It's somewhere amidst the darkness. I have a memory of what it looks like in reality: let's see if it can help me find it"
- I focused on my memory, keeping in mind that it was only a memory and NOT a part of the inner universe I had just entered.
- I tried to take that memory and to put it - as if it were an object - into the universe I had just entered.
- The memory disappeared in the darkness, but a tiny "flash" of white light appeared in it at the same time. It seemed distant. It immediately disappeared.
- I decided to try to reach the point where the "flash" had appeared, by mentally voyaging through the darkness. As I was approaching the point, vivid pictures of things appeared amidst the void. They were pictures of things I hadn't ever seen or imagined, such as an abandoned and dirty dog basket.
- Eventually I saw my friends' house and I knew I had reached the point.
- I entered the garden of the house, and then the house itself. Somehow, I knew it was something I could do.
- I arrived in what I thought was the living room. I observed everything around me.
- I went back out of the house and then I stopped the whole mental journey: I opened my eyes.
- Some time later I drew the living room of the house as I had seen it in my mind: the table, the chairs, the carpets, their position, shape and color.

This is it.
Some time after this experiment, maybe days after, maybe a week, I went to visit those friends of mine for the first time and I entered the real house.
I brought the piece of paper I had drawn the living room on, of course.
Finally I arrived in the living room: it was all exactly like in my drawing, save a series of teddy bears and knickknacks and some newspapers thrown on a chair.
I had made it! I had seen the inside of a house without entering it, I could have talked about its details to my friends before entering it and they'd have taken me for a sorcerer! :D
For me it was all somewhat normal, because Lada had taught me to think that such things were.

I repeated this experiment many years after: I tried to see my mother-in-law's workplace. She then came back from work and confirmed that it looked exactly like I had described it. :)
And this is only one application of the science I talk of.
Until now I met two people who are able to do the same: Lada Haldeson and she who is my mate in this life, whose name I don't want to say here.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion »

Interesting, this is somewhat similar to what I see on Salvia-Visions. The main difference being that the power comes from the Salvia-people, not from me: I'm just a hollow reed through which the spirits project their power. (If you wonder who the 'Salvia-people' are, it's all described on my FB page here [link]).
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir »

I have to add a note here, for everyone: when - in that process - I close my eyes, it's obvious that there is something that my subconscious does - it's not just "closing eyes and imagining". I omitted it, as it's complicated to explain. But this universe "behind my eyes" responds independently, I'm not in control.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Mildir »

I must say it: the way I enter that "dimension" is tremendously similar to the way Lúthien practices gnosis, the way she journeys to Valinor.
That is one of the reason why I am convinced that gnosis is a good way to find objective truths: it reminds my way of finding them, at least as explained by the members of this forum.
Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil. (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Meneldur Olvarion »

Mildir wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:21 pm
I must say it: the way I enter that "dimension" is tremendously similar to the way Lúthien practices gnosis, the way she journeys to Valinor.
Cool, that gives me more data to understand your process.
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by Lúthien »

Mildir wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 am
Meneldur Olvarion wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:05 pm
The problem is Moderns tend to believe, falsely, that science applies to everything. As more of a pure mathematician, it is perhaps easier for me to see this error in judgement directly.
Aren't you, with this statement, implying that science (as we know it) is NOT the best key to understanding everything ? :)
I agree with Meneldur. Science is a way to draw up theories about how the physical world operates. It does that quite well, though it must be stressed that a scientific theory is always at most a model - mostly a mathematical model - of one very specific and clearly defined aspect of that physical world.

Most people conflate scientific theory with “truth”. It isn’t, as any good scientist can confirm.

You could compare a scientific theory with a roadmap. It is more or less “suitable” to use as a way to find your way around - there are good maps and lousy maps. Usually maps are improved over time, but they are never identical to what they describe.

Another issue to keep in mind is that there is not even one “best scientific theory” for a given phenomenon. There are infinitely many possible theories, and the process of creating scientific theories is itself entirely non-scientific (see “Zen & the art of Motorcycle Maintenance for more about that).

And most importantly: science deals only with what’s physical and objectively verifiable.
There is a huge area of human experience that science cannot say anything about. Art, spirituality, meaning, justice, love, poetry, imagination, to name a few. And creativity, including the creativity used to draw up scientific theories.
A! Elin velui, dîn dolog, aduial lúthad!
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Re: Above, Below, Within: Gnosticism and Witchcraft

Post by wornout »

Luthien,

I couldn't have said it better! :clapping:
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