Discussion split off from ‘Gondolin music’

[Elaran]

[...]
a celebration that the Valar call Sagamirâyen ("Double merriment") and some Eldar have named Samirien (which is phonetically based on Valarin).
[...]
And by the way: I think you wanted to write "Nost-na-Lothion".
[...]

Samírien is an Early Quenya (i.e. Qenya) name from Tolkien's earliest ideas on his Legendarium and its languages (from 1910~). Its elements are: EQ intensive-prefix sa-, and the gerund of the EQ verb miri- "to smile", with no ties to Valarin, as Tolkien had not yet devised it at the time. And this "Sagamirâyen" does not resemble any Valarin word, while it is also quite unlikely that the Elves would adopt an affix from a Valarin word, let alone use it in other expressions (indeed, there were other words beside Samírien that employed sa-. Are all of them Valarin in origin, then?).

More importantly, Samírien became gibberish as early as 1930~ when Tolkien updated his approach to the languages drastically, and √MIRI (the Primitive Quenderin root of EQ "to smile") became √MIR "precious", with its well-established derivations like mírë "jewel" & mírëa "jeweled" as opposed to EQ mírea "smiling". In other words, if you accept MIR to mean "precious, treasure, jewel, etc.", then you cannot use it also for "smiling", since doing so would be quite a big logic gap. Similarly, Nost-na-Lothion is a name from Gnomish/Goldogrin, which is Sindarin's first draft around the same time with Samírien, and it also became quite meaningless after 1930~.

[...]
In my opinion what we call "imagination" can lead to either truth or fantasy.
[...]

And Lúthien would say that an imagined thing could just as well offer the truth. I could tell you a completely made up story with a profound moral of which to learn. In her case, her experience led her to a piece of music which I can easily believe to be of Elvish origin. And yet it is imagined! Then we must realise, her experience's being truth or fantasy matters little. Indeed, what matters is that it is beautiful even if it is not "real". I thank you both for this lesson on the in/significance of "truth" or "reality".

[Lúthien]

Hi, thanks for your answers. It is good to read them.

Elaran, what you say about ‘truth / real’ vs. ‘fantasy’ - that is indeed the crucial point.
It’s so much at the heart of our thinking that most people don’t even see it.

Following people like Stephan Hoeller, I’ve come to adapt using the terms ‘true’ and ‘real’ in the wider sense, including ‘imaginal truth’ or ‘profound beauty’, as opposed to ‘factual’ for the everyday, verifiable ‘scientific truth’.

They’re just labels, I know, but I feel that the kind of transfigurative beauty found at the heart of Tolkien’s Legendarium is in every way worthy of being called ‘true’.

I think that both of you can testify that it feels even more ‘true’ (more ‘solid’ or ‘universal’) than the cut-and-dried factual truths of the concensus reality.

I’m glad that you liked the music!

[Elaran]

I agree with all of your statements here. And, not unlike us, I think that Mildir finds beauty in things of Elvish origin as well. Where his and our approach to the matter seem to diverge is how we define experiences such as yours. You and I do not need to view them to be real in order to have real feelings about or receive real ideas from them, which does not seem to be the case with him, and so I wished to offer your wisdom to him.

[Mildir]

Samírien is an Early Quenya (i.e. Qenya) name from Tolkien's earliest ideas on his Legendarium and its languages

I imagine so.
But I cannot account for J.R.R. Tolkien's choices or "amendments" to his notes.
I can only tell you that I grew up knowing that Samirien was a "curious word", an attempt to render a Valarin word through the sounds of Quenya.
I remember other Ñoldorin linguists telling me that it was preferable to use the original word.
Again, this comes from my memories and I shall always keep it in a box labelled "Mildir's memories".
I have no interest in comparing these memories with Tolkien's notes in order to draw conclusions such as "I am right, he was wrong".
What I tell comes from a personal experience, what he told may have come from another personal experience: nobody is wrong.

And this "Sagamirâyen" does not resemble any Valarin word,

"Gawâganaz aemôrenai, shurûbenaz aemôreniz aêkeadhayêna, phalâwen udhurâgadan, phalâwen udhûshidhan, ithilêpheshur anâi devadhâridhan aehîbinurubânaya belâyanashamânushan..."

Does this resemble the Valarin you know?
It's the beginning of a poem, a very old friend of mine taught it to me.
In my Eldarin life I learnt many things about the language of the Valar, the names of the seasons for example.
They are four (unlike the Eldarin seasons, which are six):
- Enuyastâzidel ( = Luxuriance of life): Spring.
- Sahurutêlgubiz ( = Parabola of sweltering heat): Summer.
- Ezelîgwidhur ( = Enfeeblement of greenery): Autumn.
- Agâyashir ( = Majesty of frost): Winter.

I don't know whether these words really resemble the Valarin described by Tolkien, they may, they may not...
But they will forever remain in my heart.

[Lúthien]

Where his and our approach to the matter seem to diverge is how we define experiences such as yours.

Exactly, yes.
This has been complicating the conversations that Dave and I had with Mildir until now - no offence intended, Mildir.
I'm interested in what he has to say, but there's a kind of communication breakdown because he presents everything as if it is 'consensus-reality-truth', while I was trying to get across that people generally won't accept that - not me specifically, but anyone else.

And really, I don't blame it on anyone that these things are difficult. I'm still wrestling with it. But you have to have some sort of common metaphysical ground.

[Lúthien]

@Mildir, if the soundcloud link doesn't work for you, try this one: (link)

[Mildir]

You and I do not need to view them to be real in order to have real feelings about or receive real ideas from them

Neither do I.
I don't need to know something is actual in order to feel its actual beauty.
I love fairytales, especially Irish fairytales.
They aren't actual, but their beauty is.

But - maybe this is not clear to you - I have no choice but to consider factual what I saw with my own eyes (for example: the Eldar, their eagles, what they did).
And I can't doubt my endless and very clear memories more than you can doubt a clear memory of yourself playing as a child.
There have been moments of this life in which I could feel their weight and I thought it was unbearable.
But that very weight was also what confirmed that they were true.
Besides, I got to know other people who had partly the same memories.
But that's another story.

[Mildir]

[...]he presents everything as if it is 'consensus-reality-truth', [...]

What can I do besides telling that what I saw with my eyes is what I (Mildir) saw with my eyes, that what I remember is just in my (and some other people's) head and that what I feel about the nature of God is an opinion?
When I tell these things, I honestly don't think I'm talking about consensus reality.
When I tell them, I think I'm talking about a personal experience.

Am I mistaken?

@Mildir, if the soundcloud link doesn't work for you, try this one: (link)

Just heard it, very elegant, thank you for sharing this link.
It resembles in style many songs which I sing.
I would like to share with you some of them, but I have to find the time to open a SoundCloud account or something...

[Elaran]

Here we are at last. I had suggested it, Dave had mentioned it, and now we can hear(read) the words from yourself:

[...]
I cannot account for J.R.R. Tolkien's choices or "amendments" to his notes.
[...]
I have no interest in comparing these memories with Tolkien's notes in order to draw conclusions such as "I am right, he was wrong".
What I tell comes from a personal experience, what he told may have come from another personal experience: nobody is wrong.
[...]

To be quite honest with you, I would not have bothered to comment on your claims, were it not for the fact that your earlier posts are at odds with this one. That is to say, you were at first rather firm in your belief that your knowledge or "memories" of Arda and Tolkien's Legendarium are analogous. Indeed, all of the "lore info" that you have thrown at us is basically common knowledge (at least to a Tolkien scholar) concerning the ways of the Elves and so on. In fact, I think, you are yet to mention anything that goes against Tolkien's writings about Elvish lore (unlike your unfounded claims on Elvish languages). So, Tolkien's source and yours seem to be the same indeed, as your earlier posts basically "confirm" (or at least, that is what I understood). But then comes the linguistics, and so begins the cherry-picking, and things like the above quote. In other words, you leave out the parts that would lessen the validity of your claims (if they had any validity in the first place). And finally, you decided to use the ultimate weapon, "Everyone is right". To quote Dave: "At that point, no further discussion is possible."

I could continue and talk about how memories can be quite unreliable (especially when they are not recalled via regular methods), but since you have the tool (i.e. "Everyone is right.") to dismiss even the most solid proof of logic gaps in your claims, indeed, no further discussion is possible. And so, all I can do is to recommend studying the source material, Tolkien's works, more closely (later you can continue to call them your "memories" if you wish), as you would then realise the fact that his early and late works are not compatible. One should stick to one or the other, but not to both. Because, for example, Sauron was called the "Prince of Cats" in those early works, and claiming that words like Samírien are still a part of the Late Period Quenya is no less illogical than calling him by that name. Or, speaking of Gondolin, we can use the example of Tarnin Austa, which is gibberish in Sindarin, but it meant "Gates of Summer" in Sindarin's (40-years-ago) draft, Goldogrin. The updated form would be Ennyn Laer, so be sure to use this rather than the gibberish, so that you could avoid looking more troubled than you initially appear to be, in case you stumble upon another Lambengolmo... So many things to address! Alas, I have grown tired of this.

Merin i belil hired i-haw 'wanwen lîn.

[Mildir]

To be quite honest with you, I would not have bothered to comment on your claims

I am just a child who meets someone and tells them: "Look, I found this beautiful flower. I want you to see it because I think its beauty reveals some truth."
No claims, no demands.
If you can't see the simplicity of it, I fear there is no way to explain it to you by using words.
You seem to expect me to be consistent with what Tolkien says in his many notes.
Why?
Because what I tell is partly similar to what he tells?
I'm not making things up to create an alternative Tolkienian world, I'm just saying "guys, I was born with strange memories and I found out that most of them are very similar to what T. tells in his books. Some other aren't".
This doesn't require to be consistent with Tolkien's work, seems to me...

I think the underlying problem is that you assume that I'm lying to myself when I say I remember these "Tolkienian" things and that I should instead admit (to myself in the first place) that I am taking them from Tolkien's books.
It happened in the past that someone thought this about me, that's why I'm telling you that this may perhaps be the case.
I wish I was lying... but I remember.
I remember talking to my mother about mar vanwa tyalieva at the age of six, when I hadn't even heard talk of "The Lord of the Rings".
We lived in a campervan in the middle of nowhere, far removed from society and with no television.
And I described it to her, just like Tolkien had described it in his books.
Some would call it a miracle, but I'm afraid that you'd call it a claim...

And finally, you decided to use the ultimate weapon, "Everyone is right". To quote Dave: "At that point, no further discussion is possible."

Are you sure?
You may ask me: "How can you tell these memories aren't false?"
I may aswer: "At some point I found out that there were others like me. I contacted them. I discovered that they remembered places, people and events which I remembered and which no one else could know of".
You may ask me: "Is there a difference between these memories and the memories of your current life, the one in our (normal) world?".
I may answer: "Not really. Indeed, I tend to see my lives as a single long life... (etc.)".
And I may ask you: "You know Qenya very well. Do you think we could find evidence that Tolkien reinstated Qenya words in later Quenya? If we can't, never mind, but it would be fun" (and that is talking with people, even if it's more possible in threads such as the one on evolution)

Isn't this a discussion, or at least a start?
Maybe not the discussion you hoped to come across, maybe not a debate in the classical sense.
But still a discussion, in my view.

the most solid proof of logic gaps in your claims,

They are "logic gaps" if we put them inside Tolkien's legendarium, maybe, but why should we do that as if doing it were the only thing that "legitimates" them?

Merin i belil hired i-haw 'wanwen lîn.

I already have.
I never needed my thoughts to be in accordance with the content of the books by Tolkien in order to find it, though...

[Mildir]

They are "logic gaps" if we put them inside Tolkien's legendarium, maybe, but why should we do that as if doing it were the only thing that "legitimates" them?

What I mean is this: we could do it, we could try to find out together (and your experience is invaluable for that purpose) how much of what I remember coincides with what Tolkien writes (and many times strikes out).
Maybe we should do it, because it might turn out to be interesting for both of us.
But if we did it, we shouldn't do it with the purpose to demonstrate that my statements are false if not shared by Tolkien or that his are false if not shared by me.
We should do it for fun, in simple words, and it might become a beautiful discussion all the same.

Lúthien, don't you think it might?
Don't you think this might be a wonderful occcasion to talk with Elaran?

Merin i belil hired i-haw 'wanwen lîn.

May I ask if you deduced the root *bal- from the Quenya attested root vala-?
Because in this case it should be *bala-, at least in a NeoSindarin such as D. Salo's, and as such it should be conjugated like this: balon, balal, bala...
The form you mention seems instead to follow this other kind of conjugation: belin, belil, bâl... (the kind of conjugation that we can expect to originate from a root such as *bal-).
Also, the meaning of Q. vala- is "to rule", so this would make it inappropriate to use it as a base to say "to be able to".
Anyway, this may not be the place to discuss such matters: if you want we can open a new topic.

[Meneldur Olvarion]

[...] By the way: I can't listen to the song, I've tried, it doesn't work.

You may want to try another browser. Take it from an old IT peep: various rendering engines make large differences in content display, especially when the various extensions and plugins are factored in. It works fine here with Palemoon 27.9.1 (now, granted, this thing is blinged to the max (over 100 addons and counting)).

And by the way: I think you wanted to write "Nost-na-Lothion".

I'm not sure if you are aware, but I'm not a linguist and have little skill in that area in the formal sense. All of these terms were taken directly form the corpus without regard to which linguistic 'era' they came from, but were chosen, rather, according to my own ideas of best-fit (in a more or less mathematical sense, c.f. least absolute deviations curve fitting). The effect on someone of greater linguistic knowledge may be similar to "Elven Ebonics" - I have had such complaints relayed to me before from someone Lisa knew on Facebook - but that doesn't sway me because I have become quite fond of my Elven Ebonics and have no urge to send an edit-bot through the board's database and alter everything. I do have a sudden urge to begin rapping, but I suppose I can forego that...

[Mildir]

I'm not sure if you are aware, but I'm not a linguist and have little skill in that area in the formal sense. All of these terms were taken directly form the corpus

I thought so, that is why I told her. *Nost-na-Lothian is not in the corpus. It has a typo. Tolkien writes Nost-na-Lothion.
See here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nost-na-Lothion

I do have a sudden urge to begin rapping, but I suppose I can forego that...

Since I know that "rapping" can also mean "having a conversation": are you saying you want to make music or that you'd like a conversation?
Forgive my naivety: I'm from Italy... :blush2:

[Meneldur Olvarion]

[...] I thought so, that is why I told you: *Nost-na-Lothian is not in the corpus. It has a typo. Tolkien writes Nost-na-Lothion.
See here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nost-na-Lothion

It is indeed "Nost-na-Lothion" in the foundation document "The Quendian Calendar & Festivals.doc". You should not (necessarily) expect any of my posts on this forum to be typo-free. Why is that? Because I had a neurological illness from age 11 to about 15 wherein I lost most of my fine motor control and never really gained it back. So, what happens is that I aim at one key and often hit a nearby one. Want some proof? Here is the first sentence uncorrected:

It is ineed "Nost-na-Lothion" in th effoundation document "The Quendian Calendar & Festivals.doc".

I type fast and with lots of errors, and then go back and correct them, which takes far more time. In such an operation, some things will inevitably get missed.

Added: I use Recoll or similar software to search the entire corpus to ensure terms exist or to find unusual word pairings, etc.

Since I know that "rapping" can also mean "having a conversation": are you saying you want to make music or that you'd like a conversation?
Forgive my naivety: I'm from Italy... :blush2:

No, I meant this kind of rapping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAA-CZdmr10

_{Added: Changed embedded video to link, as YouTube tends to error-out on embedded links now.}

[Meneldur Olvarion]

[...] Merin i belil hired i-haw 'wanwen lîn.

Can anyone translate this for the non-Elvish speaker, here? Otherwise it's like this:

d6e577961bd559671ffa96251f8081b9c488d3ff656ddc2857ab92499491c2fd
da03ff7fab08ec784cc98862b709b48ede883614e0078d720fa2ec44f6f474c5

{Blowfish encrypted text with custom pass-phrase.}