All this has originated from my chance quotation of the term Samirien
Lúthien: I should probably have opened a new topic immediately after Elaran's first post about the issues he thinks Mithren has, sorry for not doing it, I suppose I simply overlooked the matter...
I'm posting here again just because you might decide to move our posts elsewhere at any moment and in this case we risk to open two separate new discussions about the same topic... :hmm:
Elaran wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 11:11 am
My reason for quoting Mildir's correction on Nost-na-Lothion
[...] was that I assumed that he acknowledged it in his memories
Absolutely! I have never heard in Mithren something like "Nost-na-Lothion
Well, now that I think about it, nost is
a Mithren word, but it menas "kind, courteous", not "birth" (nor "family", for that matter. "Family" is midor
, in Mithren).
like he did with Samírien.
I'd like to point out that the Mithren word is Samirien
, not Samírien
In the Quenya which I remember being spoken in Valinor Samirien
is a special word: you cannot inflect it and it is not really part of Quenya.
Since it is just a way to render a Valarin word through the Quenya morpho-phonetic style
you can only use it in this form.
Now, in that Quenya you normally decline a word instead of putting a preposition before it (exactly like in Tolkien's Quenya), but there is also a set of prepositions that you can use when a word cannot be inflected, like in this case.
= House/A house (declinable word) > Carëo
= Of a house; Carenë
= To a house.
= Samirien (indeclinable word) > On Samirien
= Of Samirien; An Samirien
= To Samirien.
is a word like Tolcien
In the Quenya I know you can say "Tolcien
" to indicate J.R.R. Tolkien, but you don't inflect the word, which is not really part of the language.
And my reason for addressing this was the incoherency of it all. Because indeed, (early) Samírien and, for example, (late) Míriel cannot coexist, as they employ the same root [...] but with altogether different meanings.
Sorry, Elaran, but I think you are missing the point: just because a word of the Quenya I know has the same form as a word of Tolkien's Quenya (or
Qenya), it doesn't mean it has the same meaning
For example, the word mandë
means "well" (adv.) in Tolkien's Qenya, "doom/fate" in Tolkien's Quenya and "hall
" in the Quenya of my memories.
Three different meanings.
So, how can you say that the Quenya I know (and the same goes for Mithren
) is incoherent if you don't know the meaning of all its words?
You can't deduce the meaning of a word of that
Quenya just by looking at the meaning of a word of Tolkien's, not even if it has exactly the same form.
Mildir's dialect of Sindarin is somewhat close to Sindarin
There may be analogies (and there are many indeed), but they are not the same language.
his acknowledging words etc. such as the above to be a part of his dialect means that the words which he is using are incompatible with each other.
Can you tell me an example of two words of "Mildir's dialect of Sindarin" which are incompatible with each other?
How could you? :o
You don't know the grammar of Mithren, you don't know its vocabulary...
All you can do is just assume
that they are.
And his failure to address such issues
It's taking time for me to explain that these issues are nonexistent, it may be due to the fact that English is not my mother tongue...
Merin i belil hired i-haw 'wanwen lîn, or in Quenya, Merin i polil hirë vanwa sámalya, which may help with his understanding it...
Yes, now it's clear.
But you chose to ascribe to the word saw
a meaning which is different from the one Tolkien gave to it (i.e. "juice").
That was rather unexpected and it misled me.
means "mind" and the whole sentence (both in NeoSindarin and Quenya) means "I wish you to/I hope you'll be able to find your lost mind".
But... Elaran... according to Tolkien (since you are using his
Quenya) the verb polë
means "have physical
power and ability".
Maybe it would be better if you'd say "Merin i istal hirë vanwa sámalya
" or "Nai hiruval vanwa sámalya