Page 1 of 1

Re: The Valar if Sauron won

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:01 pm
by Meneldur Olvarion
There is an entire essay by JRRT in Morgoth's Ring (HoME vol 10). Some salient points:
Notes on motives in the Silmarillion wrote:[...] If we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King {Manwe}, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgment. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.


The Valar were like architects working with a plan 'passed' by the Government. They became less and less important (structurally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work - not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything - save by counsel.) Similarly the Elves faded, having introduced 'art and science'.(13) Men will also 'fade', if it proves to be the plan that things shall still go on, when they have completed their function.
-- "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion", Morgoth's Ring (HoME vol 10)

So, taken together, it is pretty clear that they would have done something, although it is less likely there would have been a direct intervention as in the Elder Days.

Re: The Valar if Sauron won

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:01 pm
by LĂșthien
(admin note) - the user who asked this question decided to leave, so their posts have been deleted as well.